Photo: CSIS
This transcript is from a CSIS event hosted on November 5, 2024. Watch the full video here.
Hadeil Ali: How do 20 years of military service prepare you to become the highest-ranking woman in the Department of Veteran Affairs history? What does leadership mean to the first women and the first women of color in her role? Tanya Bradsher, deputy secretary of Veteran Affairs, joins us today to answer these questions, and more. I’m your host, Hadeil Ali. Welcome to Driving Impact.
Announcer: Driving Impact, an exclusive insight into the personal backgrounds and careers of trailblazers on the front lines of policy.
Ms. Ali: Deputy Secretary Bradsher, it’s such an honor to have you here today at CSIS.
Tanya Bradsher: Thank you. It’s wonderful to be here.
Ms. Ali: And you’ve shared that this is your first time at CSIS, we’re really excited to have you on this show.
Ms. Bradsher: It is. Thank you. It’s wonderful to be here.
Ms. Ali: So what did 10-year-old Tanya Bradsher want to be when she grew up?
Ms. Bradsher: (Laughs.) She really just wanted to play. She was a pretty rough and tumble tomboy. She was in Fort Bragg, North Carolina, now Camp – Fort Liberty. And, you know, her dad was a mess sergeant. And she just ran around, played hard, and was always home by the streetlights. That was my rule from my parents.
Ms. Ali: She just wanted to have a good time.
Ms. Bradsher: Have a good time. Had no idea.
Ms. Ali: And I love this picture of you, because it also says on your T-shirt, “felt happy today, just want to have a good time,” but also it looks like an official headshot. So you were headed towards big things very early on.
Ms. Bradsher: (Laughs.) Well, what’s funny, this sticker – my mom hates this sticker. It is from a Crackerjacks box. And I put it on my shirt without her knowing about it, until the school photo came back. And she just was so upset. She’s like, you’ve ruined the picture. I can’t believe you have that on there. But I kind of like it.
Ms. Ali: Well, I think it looks absolutely great. So you didn’t have any – you didn’t know if you wanted to work in a certain industry or sector. That wasn’t something that you were thinking were thinking about at that time?
Ms. Bradsher: Especially at that age, no. I just – you know, it was all about going out, going go play. And later on in life I thought maybe I wanted to be a schoolteacher. And so that was kind of my first piece in high school. And then I ran summer camp and realized I probably should not be a schoolteacher.
Ms. Ali: (Laughs.) It’s a tough job. It’s underappreciated and underpaid.
Ms. Bradsher: Absolutely, yes.
Ms. Ali: Well, you come from a family with four generations of military service. And we have a wonderful picture of your grandfather here. Could you tell us a little bit more about what this photo represents?
Ms. Bradsher: Yes. Oh, this tears me up. So the gentleman, if you look from the left three in, is my grandfather, Lieutenant Colonel Hugh Curry is my mother’s father. I’m biracial. My mom is White. My dad is Black. And he was the conductor of the Army Band – the longest serving conductor of the Army Band from 1948 to 1964. And he is from Massachusetts, Boston. And so for him, it was a wonderful privilege to be able to be in the room with President Kennedy. And one of my grandfather’s last acts on active duty was being the band conductor of Pershing’s Own for Kennedy’s funeral. And that devastated him. It really was quite hard for him. But he has a wonderful legacy within the United States Army Band. And they don’t have a lot of conductors. I can’t remember how many they have, but I do know he is the longest serving conductor of Pershing’s Own.
Ms. Ali: Oh, wow. That’s incredible. Well, talk to me a little bit more about your family’s military legacy and how that’s shaped you, and who you are today.
Ms. Bradsher: Absolutely. I’ve always either lived around or on a military base. My father was drafted for Vietnam when I was one year old and ended up not going to Vietnam. And so he went straight to, at the time, Fort Bragg, North Carolina, and served 11 consecutive years. Ended up jumping all 11 years, blowing at his knee, and was then sent to Germany. And when he went to Germany, we moved back to Arlington, Virginia, which is where I was born. And that’s where I went to junior high and high school. And then we lived with my grandfather, who you just saw, my mom’s parents. And so we always had big band photos, and photos of he and my grandmother, and his time in service. So I’ve always been around the military.
Ms. Ali: And what are some of the values, do you think, that that instilled in you very early on?
Ms. Bradsher: I think being a public servant. Always wanting to serve. Huge respect for the military, for the – you know, Army was what I was exposed to for the vast majority of my life. And that, you know, enlisted and officer, because my dad was enlisted and my grandfather was an officer. And just always being someone who would do the right thing, and who would always – never sit back in a situation, just always willing to help. That was what my dad did. It’s what my grandfather did. It’s just what I saw growing up.
Ms. Ali: And you yourself turned to military service as well, and at a difficult time in your life. Could you tell us how much of a defining moment that was to make that decision?
Ms. Bradsher: (Laughs.) So what happened was I wasn’t planning on joining the Army. I had went to college. I went to University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. But when I graduated my parents got divorced. And that was a really hard time. My dad had retired from the Army. And from there I had met a guy and ended up kind of getting married really quick, and really searching for a sense of family. And turns out that that didn’t really work out well. So one day my mom said, let’s go to lunch. And I said, OK. So we – I got in her car and she drove me straight to the recruiters.
And I’m sitting outside.
Ms. Ali: She made the decision.
Ms. Bradsher: And I’m looking – I’m looking for the restaurant. And all I see is the recruiters. (Laughter.) And I said, what’s going on? And she said, you’re going to go in. You’re going to go talk to a recruiter. And you’re going to sign up for Officer Candidate School because the life you are living is not why your dad and I sent you – sent you to college. And so I went in, and, you know, went through the process. And the guy really wanted me to enlist immediately. And I said, no, I wanted to go to OCS. And so another gentleman, Sergeant First Class Johnson, ended up calling me that night and said, hey, I’m getting ready to take over a different station. I will process your OCS packet, but I just ask that you don’t waste my time. And that started my journey. And so I went to basic training at Fort Jackson, and then Officer Candidate School at Fort Benning.
Ms. Ali: So your mom wanted to give you a sense of purpose with that decision?
Ms. Bradsher: Yes. My mom knew – she saw in me what I didn’t see in myself at the time. She knew that I was not on a great path, and that really the Army would be good for me. And what was fascinating to me that I did not anticipate was I went to basic training, and when I got to basic training the same bunk beds that my dad brought home and painted pink and – pink for me and green for my brother, were the exact same bunk beds at Fort Jackson. And so I walked in and I was like, oh, top bunk. And I got in trouble – (laughs) – because I spoke. But the other piece was I really felt at home in basic training. And I didn’t think at the time it’d be a career, but I knew it was exactly where I needed to be at that point in my life.
Ms. Ali: Yeah. You said something very important, she saw in you what you didn’t see in yourself. And just before this, we were talking about this idea of imposter, right, and the importance of having people around you – whether that’s family, or mentors, or colleagues – that can push you and see your potential.
Ms. Bradsher: Yes. I have been blessed with mentors and colleagues throughout my entire life, even up until the role that I’m currently in, who have said, you know, I think you can – you can do this, and had that confidence. And I’ve had to use their confidence to get me over that hurdle
Ms. Ali: Now, you’re in the military. One of the challenges that you face is being part of a dual military household. Can you explain to us what a dual military household means?
Ms. Bradsher: Absolutely. So I’ll just go ahead and say that I first – divorced my first husband, and then I went to Korea as my first assignment as a second lieutenant, and I met John Bradsher, who was a captain.
Ms. Ali: And we have a great picture of you and John as well.
Ms. Bradsher: Oh! (Laughs.)
Ms. Ali: Where is picture from?
Ms. Bradsher: OK, so this picture is from Iraq. This is Baghdad. And so what’s really unique about this is I’m actually not deployed at the time. I am with Secretary Gates, traveling with him on his last trip to Iraq. John is actually stationed – or, deployed to Iraq in Baghdad, and was actually working for General Austin, who’s now the secretary of defense. And during that trip, I was able to see him for a day because we were at the same location. And so the gentleman who took this photo is actually the secretary of defense’s photographer, who was so excited that, you know, seeing John and I back together. And said, oh, let’s take some pictures. And it looks really magical, but it’s in Baghdad. (Laughs.) Believe it or not. As you can tell, my husband has a weapon on, so –
Ms. Ali: I didn’t actually notice that until you pointed it out.
Ms. Bradsher: Yeah. Yeah.
Ms. Ali: But it’s a great picture.
Ms. Bradsher: Thank you.
Ms. Ali: So you were saying that –
Ms. Bradsher: Oh, so we were – so we got married, and pretty soon started our family. So we have three girls. And the challenge, John’s five years older than me and senior to me in the military. And so wanting to make sure that we’re stationed in the same location, that we could keep our family together, was definitely a little easier when we were lower rank. And then as we got more and more senior, it got more complicated. And as our girls got older, you know, our girls wanted stability, because we had lived in Korea, we had lived in Colorado, we had lived in D.C. And once we got to D.C., all three of them came home and said, we’re not going anywhere. And so that was actually when I thought, OK, maybe it’s time for me to go ahead and retire, and that way John can continue.
Ms. Ali: I think maybe those are the moments where perhaps we realize it’s OK to say no, it’s OK to say enough, and thinking about what the priorities are.
Ms. Bradsher: Absolutely. You know, as a parent – and I think sometimes even in today’s society – you know, as a mom, wanting to make sure that stability was so vital. And John I knew really thoroughly enjoyed the Army. And I did as well. But when it came to, OK, who’s going to be the one, I knew it would be better if I went ahead and retired.
Ms. Ali: You said you have three daughters.
Ms. Bradsher: I do.
Ms. Ali: Are you secretly hoping for a fifth generation of –
Ms. Bradsher: I would love that. But, you know, it’s their determination. I think, you know, if one of my daughters decided to join the military, I would be so excited. But they are continuing – I have one right now who is working cybersecurity for the government. And so they are continuing public service. So I feel very proud for that. And I have one who’s going to graduate college in May. And my youngest will graduate high school in June. So there’s still hope.
Ms. Ali: Yeah. Lots of great accomplishments, regardless.
Ms. Bradsher: Thanks.
Ms. Ali: You were also stationed at the Pentagon during 9/11. Could you share with us what was that day like? What happened?
Ms. Bradsher: Absolutely. So when I first arrived to the Pentagon, it was July of 2001. I was a joint staff intern. So I was really junior to be there. I was a captain. And I found out in August I was pregnant with my second daughter. And so, you know, up until September 10th, my days are pretty great. It was 8:00 a.m. to 4:30, and I was going to the gym, and I had time for lunch, and I was doing the intern program. And then the morning of 9/11, it was absolutely beautiful. It was a Carolina blue sky. And we had started the day pretty – you know, very regular.
And the first tower was hit. And then the second tower was hit. And we knew something was wrong. And I vividly remember a woman who was carrying her shoes and running down the corridor of the Pentagon screaming, get out of my way, get out of my way. And then all of a sudden, the alarms went off, and it was time to evacuate. And we were very hesitant to evacuate, because on Friday before 9/11 we actually evacuated the Pentagon because somebody had, like, dried mats or something inside a dryer, and it had toxic fumes – or, nauseous fumes. And so we knew we were under attack, and didn’t want to leave. But we did.
And so we’re all, like, talking and, like, leaving the Pentagon, and a little frustrated. And as we go outside, we see the dark, black plume. And that was our sign something was wrong. And then we all got real quiet. And we exited and went to the side of the sidewalk. And I remember hearing jets go over. And an Air Force general officer – and I only knew that because of the braid on his hat said, “our boys are in the air.” We have air – we control the air. And our flip phones – right? It’s not 2001 – didn’t work.
And we saw just the really dark, black smoke over the Pentagon. And we couldn’t – it was actually under construction. And so the section – a large portion of the Pentagon that was hit was actually supposed to open 1 October. And my husband was supposed to move in on 1 October. He was in a building in Crystal City. And so I – we saw the black plume. And then the floors crashed. They crashed 22 minutes after the plane was hit. And so when the floors crashed, we thought that was a second explosion. And that is actually when we left the building and left the Pentagon.
And so I walked over to Crystal City. And I had no idea – it’s kind of embarrassing – but I didn’t actually know where John worked. I knew he worked in Crystal City, but I just didn’t know which building, because I knew, like, you know, in a couple of months he was going to be back in the building. And so I called him at a glass – an eyeglass store, and told him where I was. And we decided we would meet at Hamburger Hamlet. And I was standing waiting for him to come get me, and that’s when I found out that the towers had fallen, because we had been in transit. And just the devastation.
And, of course, initially for the Pentagon we thought a lot more people had been – were killed. And so we just waited. And so I met with him. And then I went home. And then Wednesday, the 12th, we went back in the building, and it was still on fire. The fire department was still putting out the fire on the roof. And we just, you know, went back in. And we’ve been, you know, to me, working ever since. And that just – that pivot of, you know, I went on 12-hour shifts. I went on – John went on shifts. He went it back – actually, the night of 9/11 he spent the night in the Pentagon because he became a watch officer. And he went to the Army Operations Center.
And on the 12th, I went to work – I was a joint staff intern. And my boss, Captain McCreary, went from person to person and gave him their assignments. And he got to me, and he said: You’re a trained public affairs – you’re a trained public affairs officer with a TS/SCI clearance. That intern blank is over. And you have a shift in the NMCC. And so with that, I went on shift with everyone else. And I worked days. John worked nights. And so we did not see each other, because we kind of hot bunked – we only had one kid at the time. And I went – October 7th was the – I went to day shift to night shift. And that was our first meal together. And we had pancakes in the Pentagon gym at 2:00 a.m.
And from there, a few weeks after that, I really started kind of filling out with my pregnancy. (Laughs.) And I called Captain McCreary to update him on something else and told him that I probably was going to have to shift to my maternity clothes. And he didn’t realize I was pregnant. Everyone just thought I was gaining weight. And so I ended up coming off night shift and going back to – but still on day shift. And so did that all the way until I had Catherine.
Ms. Ali: Wow. Wow. I cannot imagine how hard it was to also, in the middle of all this going on, not being able to see – to see family. And I’m sure finding ways to get additional support.
Ms. Bradsher: Yeah. I mean, the blessing that we had – and she’s a constant theme – is my mom. You know, during that time she pretty much just helped us with transitioning for Charlotte. And she adjusted her work schedule to be able to assist us so that we could work pretty much, you know, 24 hours.
Ms. Ali: Now, as you know, we ask all of our guests to bring a memento, something that symbolizes a meaningful moment in their career. Could you please describe to us what you’ve brought here, and why did you decide to bring it?
Ms. Bradsher: Absolutely. So it’s very easy when you’ve served in the Army for any amount of time, because you get lots of mementos. And so I didn’t want to clutter my office with a whole bunch. And this was the one that I chose. This was my farewell gift when I left Fort Carson after our deployment to Iraq. And it’s handmade. It was handmade by one of the sergeant majors who is a master woodworker. And I just love it. I think the craftsmanship of it, it’s a great reminder of my deployment, as well as my service in the Army. And so it’s the one thing that I have in my office.
Ms. Ali: It’s wonderful. And I didn’t know until you shared that it’s handmade.
Ms. Bradsher: Yes.
Ms. Ali: Yeah.
Ms. Bradsher: Yeah.
Ms. Ali: Very, very beautiful piece. And, like you said, it symbolizes your service.
Ms. Bradsher: Exactly, and the time, you know, being a proud member of 4ID, 2nd Brigade. And, you know, it was also a challenging time. But I’m very proud of my service.
Ms. Ali: So let’s talk post your service. So you retired as a lieutenant colonel in 2013. You worked in the Department of Defense, Department of Homeland Security, the White House. I could go on and on. What challenges did you face transitioning to civilian government career?
Ms. Bradsher: So I had a really weird and kind of unique situation. My last two years I was actually detailed to the White House. I was at the National Security Council. I was doing public affairs there. I was a public affairs officer in the Army, and so I did that at the Pentagon and then I went to NSC, where I got to wear civilian clothes, grow my hair out, and met the deputy national security advisor, a gentleman by the name of Denis McDonough. And really just thought that I would, you know, stay there. And then decided, after the first year, that it was time for me to take a look at retiring. That, you know, retiring out of NSC would be a great opportunity to whatever my life was after that.
And I ended up sending out resumes, applying for jobs. And one day had two interviews on the same day. And the first interview was with Valerie Jarrett to work in the Office of Public Engagement for Military Families, Wounded Warriors, and Veterans. And another one was to be a spokesman on the Hill, one of the committees. And so I went to the first interview. And I had my two phones, and my green book, and I tripped over the tread at her door – like, tripped hard. And I was mortified. And I stand up, and she’s standing there with her hand out. And I shake her hand. And she says, this will be the easiest job interview you’ve ever had. Everyone I love loves you. We’d like to welcome you to the team.
And so I took the job right then and there. And didn’t ask salary. Didn’t ask anything. Just was so excited. And what that ended up turning into is I became a political appointee, because I joined the Obama administration. And so it was an incredible honor and a privilege. But I really didn’t fully comprehend what it all meant. I was just super excited to continue to work at the White House and to be able to support the president.
Ms. Ali: So let’s now talk about your leadership at the – at the VA. You said that reaching out to female veterans was a priority of yours. Could you share why you decided to focus on that particularly, and what you’ve been able – under your leadership – to do so far?
Ms. Bradsher: While we were – you know, the PACT Act was signed in 2022. And we did a heck of a lot of outreach to be able to highlight the fact that we wanted our veterans to sign up. So we all went out, fanned out, and did different engagements across the board. And what I found was for women veterans, they would come up to me and ask about their spouse. And, you know, he did 20 years. We want to make sure he gets everything. And so as we were talking I would ask, you know, how’d you guys meet? Oh, we were stationed together. Oh, so you served. Why aren’t you also applying?
And it was, I only did four years. I got out when I was pregnant. And there was this compartmentalizing and minimizing of their service because they didn’t serve as long or they didn’t do as many tours. And the other engagement that I’ve had, it was at Target on Veterans Day. We had a young lady. She opened up the line for veterans. And so we’re standing in line, and when I came up to my turn I said: Thank you so much. It’s wonderful that – you know, for you to do this. And she said, I used to be a veteran. And it’s not a club you leave. (Laughs.) So I said, what do you mean? And, of course, I’ve got this whole line behind me. I said, what do you mean, you used to be a veteran?
And she said, well, I only did one deployment, and I only served four years. I used to be a veteran. And I said, no, you’re always a veteran. Have you signed up for your benefits? And she said, no, no, I only did one tour. I was like, absolutely you deserve your benefits. So you need to sign up. And so what I hope, being the first woman to be confirmed to serve – we’ve had a couple of acting females but never one confirmed – that other women veterans see me and see that the VA is for them. And I hope – because I, you know, get invited to do some women’s history events in March that I was able to do. I went to Nevada. I went to Arkansas. That women veterans take the opportunity to learn about the amazing services that VA has for them.
We have really just phenomenal reproductive care. We have women’s health. We have women’s clinics. We have really done so much to be able to reach out to our women veterans, including menopause which in the last year we finally can say out loud. I’m not really sure what happened, but it’s nice to be able to talk about menopause. And wanting to make sure that our women veterans, and maybe by seeing me and hearing from me, that that’ll encourage them or encourage our male veterans to reach out to their battle buddies who are women, to say, hey, are you getting your VA care? Because veterans listen to other veterans.
Ms. Ali: It’s a great example of representation and seeing someone who looks like you or shares a similar background. I love earlier you used the word “minimizing.” I think about that a lot, in a lot of different spaces where you, unfortunately, see at times women underselling or minimizing their qualifications, their skills. Even in interviews I hear sometimes women say, well, I just helped with that, but they actually led the thing. They did the thing. And I want to tell them, in the middle of the interview, you didn’t help, you didn’t support, you did it. And it’s not bragging. It’s saying what you did. And people need to hear it.
Ms. Bradsher: The same thing this morning – this morning. (Laughter.) I work at CrossFit. So I do CrossFit every morning at 5:00 a.m. And a husband said, my wife got made colonel. And so we were in the middle of doing, like, the instructions and I was like, hold up, we have an announcement. And I said, I won’t say her name, but made colonel. And she said, it’s really a team effort. And I said, no. Can I say a bad word? I’m sorry, can I say what I actually said? I don’t know if this is for kids are not. (Laughter.) I said, no, it’s because you’re a badass.
Ms. Ali: You can say that. (Laughs.)
Ms. Bradsher: And, like, acknowledged the fact that she earned colonel. That’s huge. It’s such a small percentage in the army. And the first thing she wanted to do was shrink and not acknowledge. And it is a huge deal. It’s the peak of the pyramid for the vast – of so many. So I was just so proud of her. But the same thing, just, you know, wanting to, oh yeah, it’s, like, no, no. Be proud. Be proud.
Ms. Ali: Absolutely. And it matters to step in, in these moments, and to make sure that everyone hears that, like you did this morning.
Ms. Bradsher: Yeah, huge!
Ms. Ali: You talked about also doing all the different engagements for Women’s History Month. We have a great picture, I believe, of the first Women Veterans Community Support Forum.
Ms. Bradsher: Yes.
Ms. Ali: When was that?
Ms. Bradsher: This was – I was still chief, I think, for this particular one. I don’t think I was the deputy at this point. But, yeah, isn’t that amazing? Look at all those beautiful women.
Ms. Ali: It is amazing.
Ms. Bradsher: So proud. And, you know, I just think we really need to get America used to having women veterans. And, you know, the bottom line is, the veteran population represents all of the United States. We are incredibly diverse. We’ve all served. And, you know, I just think if our women veterans really just take a minute to acknowledge their service a little bit more, it would be lovely.
Ms. Ali: Yeah. And it matters to see these photos.
Ms. Bradsher: Yes.
Ms. Ali: Like you said, it matters to see that diversity of representation.
Ms. Bradsher: Yes, absolutely. And all the services.
Ms. Ali: And all the services as well. Well, you’re not only the first woman, you’re also the first woman of color. How does your service as a Black woman, in the most diverse armed forces our nation has ever seen, influence the way you do your work on a day-to-day basis at the VA?
Ms. Bradsher: Absolutely. You know, the Biden-Harris administration has worked very hard to ensure that equity is at the forefront of everything that we do. And, you know, we have really taken a hard look, and continuing to do so, at the decisions that we have made as an organization previously, and wanting to make sure that we provide the benefits equitably to all of our veterans because we have had, as I stated earlier, such a diverse – just diversity throughout the service members.
And so with that, wanting to make sure that we educate, and that as we are seeing trends that we share them so we know that veterans who file their claims a year – within that first year of separating, we see more equitable outcomes. We know that veterans who file their claims through a VSO, we see more equitable outcomes. And so we want to share that information. And we also want to encourage any veteran who feels that, due to their race or their gender, that they did not receive an equitable outcome, to please file a supplemental. We want to make sure that all veterans receive the care and benefits that they so richly deserve.
Ms. Ali: And you’ve said that the commitment to making sure to correct any wrongs and addressing those barriers that Black veterans may experience, compared to other veterans.
Ms. Bradsher: Absolutely. You know, we have – you know, for – we know that education, right? We know that for World War II that education benefits weren’t delivered equitably across. And so we want to make sure that education benefits, that all of our veterans know about the education benefits that are there, and that they encourage them to use them. Because they really – education is a key to so much.
Ms. Ali: Well, to close out, we would like to ask you three questions. We do that with every guest on Driving Impact, rapid fire. Are you ready?
Ms. Bradsher: OK, I’ll do my best.
Ms. Ali: Let’s do it. What are three words you would use to describe your career?
Ms. Bradsher: Unbelievable. Oh my goodness. Hardworking. And my career – describe my career. Oh, God, I’m really bad at this. I would say just, you know, blessed.
Ms. Ali: Hardworking, unbelievable, and blessed.
In your opinion, what does it mean to be American?
Ms. Bradsher: Proud. You know, the – our diversity is our strength. And that is the principle we were founded on. And it is just – I am incredibly proud to be an American.
Ms. Ali: And what is giving you hope right now?
Ms. Bradsher: What’s giving me hope is just how our veterans are able to be the pillars in so many communities. And so, you know, one of the struggles that we have is sometimes we really – we want to make sure that we always take care of our veterans, but there are also an incredible swath of veterans out there who are just leading change and who are really driving forces in all of their communities, and shared with that foundation, and the determination, and the perseverance, and the training that we’ve received, and our values and our morals, and being able to utilize those in the community.
Ms. Ali Deputy Secretary Bradsher, thank you very much for your service. Thank you for your leadership. And thank you for such a fun conversation here.
Ms. Bradsher: Thank you. It was great. I really enjoyed it.
Ms. Ali: Thank you.
You heard it yourself, the inspiring story of a fourth-generation military veteran who now holds the second-highest post in the VA. Deputy Secretary Tanya Bradsher draws inspiration from her family’s legacy to advocate for the nation’s most diverse generation of veterans. Thank you for tuning in to today’s conversation. You can find more episodes of Driving Impact on YouTube, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
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