Driving Impact Live: From Peace Corps Volunteer to Director

This transcript is from a CSIS event hosted on September 24, 2024. Watch the full video here.

Hadeil Ali: How did a degree in accounting inspire a lifelong journey in international development? How did volunteering for the Peace Corps in Romania lead to a new career path and a love story? Carol Spahn, director of the Peace Corps, joins us today to answer these questions, and more. I’m your host Hadeil Ali. Welcome to Driving Impact.

(Music plays.)

Announcer: Driving Impact, an exclusive insight into the personal backgrounds and careers of trailblazers on the front lines of policy.

Ms. Ali: Welcome, Carol, to our show, and thank you for joining us.

Carol Spahn: It’s great to be here. Very privileged.

Ms. Ali: Let’s dive right in. Carol, what did you want to be as a 10-year-old?

Ms. Spahn: Boy, as a 10-year-old? I grew up in Kansas. My parents grew up in a very small town in Iowa. We were very practical people. I came from a very big family. So I’m third of seven kids. And I think mostly it wasn’t what I wanted to be when I was 10 years old, but what I wanted to do. And that was keep up with the boys. (Laughs.) I really wanted to be able to do all of the things that my older brothers were doing. I wanted to get out there and be a part of it. And really wanted to just be active and engaged.

Ms. Ali: It’s funny, you mentioned you grew up in Kansas. Actually, people are often surprised, but I went to undergrad in Missouri, so not very far. And I got to spend some – we traveled a lot in the Midwest. And so got to spend some time in Kansas, Oklahoma, and in other states around the Midwest. And that was a very, very formative part of my career. Thinking back to your childhood, Carol, do you remember any values that you grew up with that you think have carried on to your career and where you’re at, right now?

Ms. Spahn: Absolutely. I think the thing that my parents stressed the most was integrity. Integrity in everything that you do. That you are thinking about what is the right thing, not necessarily for yourself but for the broader whole. And whether that is in how you do your schoolwork, how you compete in sports, how you treat your family. All of those things, it was really a core tenet. And embedded in that is service. So we were very active in our community, getting out, volunteering.

And that was just part of the way that we were raised. I don’t think that it necessarily – sort of, there wasn’t necessarily an international angle to that as I was growing up. As I mentioned, my parents grew up in a very small farming community in Iowa. We did things that were practical. We did things that were frugal. We were very grounded. So that was sort of the essence of sort of what my childhood was.

Ms. Ali: You mentioned service and integrity. And it can be in different contexts. And you took that to an international context. But I think service can mean something different. That can be your local community. That can be abroad. That might look different. I was curious, because you said earlier about wanting to keep up with the – with the boys. Do you feel like that led you to want to work – or, to feel like you have to work twice as hard, or how that impacted you being a woman in your – in your family and choices that you’ve had to make later on?

Ms. Spahn: Mmm hmm. Well, I think hard work was also one of those core tenets that kind of goes along with the mindset and the value systems I grew up with. And I did think I had to work extra hard to keep up with the boys. And I did work extra hard. And I ended up in some fields initially that were male dominated, whether it was, you know, in the investment space, banking. And I learned a lot from that. And I think that that certainly honed a lot of skills, because I did need to prove myself in those environments.

Ms. Ali: And you hear that from a lot of women. I remember in our first season I was talking to Undersecretary Bonnie Jenkins and she said exactly the same thing, the pressure on women to work twice as hard. And what does that mean, to create a community where we’re supporting each other? So, now, Carol, take me back to the moment where you first discovered service through the Peace Corps. Do you still remember that moment where you discovered the Peace Corps, and fell in love with the idea of volunteering?

Ms. Spahn: Well, I think it’s a culmination of a lot of different things that came together. And interestingly, I was working in the field of accounting. I was working as a financial statement auditor at a bank. And I really knew that I was willing to work very, very hard, but I wanted it to be for something that was mission driven. And I applied to the Peace Corps and to physical therapy school at the same time. Which, you know, just completely divergent paths. And got into both around the same time. And so you’re faced with this life-altering decision. And I thought I could go and, you know, do my Peace Corps service, and come back and go to physical therapy school, and my life would go on as I had predicted and planned.

And really, once I went to the Peace Corps it just changed my life in such foundational ways. And the sort of imagination that – sort of thinking about what’s possible, right, through taking a risk or a leap of faith like that, instead of going into a more traditional sort of career path, was a big one. And it was not something that I had, you know, sort of a family example, necessarily, of someone doing that. Although, I do have a great uncle, I would love to share you – share a little bit about.

Ms. Ali: Absolutely.

Ms. Spahn: But I think at that moment I just knew that there were a lot of different ways for people to live their lives. And it didn’t have to be sort of the cookie-cutter, societal, you know, expectation to go from A to B to C, and then, you know, have this career that happens in a straight line. And so the opportunity to go and serve in Romania, just four years after the fall of communism, having grown up in the Cold War, was just a moment that I couldn’t miss.

Ms. Ali: And what were – looking back, what were some of your biggest takeaways from that experience? What did you learn about yourself? What did you learn about what you wanted to do, and how you wanted to contribute in a way, exactly like you said, that’s mission driven?

Ms. Spahn: Well, I’ll start with what I learned about the world, because I think my own worldview had been fairly small. And we hear a lot of things through the media about what’s happening in the world, and it’s very easy to take things at face value. And so having grown up in the Cold War, having heard all of the things about what life was like during communism, and then showing up during this period of great transition, and meeting people, and hearing their perceptions of the United States really also makes you think.

And I heard things like, oh, well, you have dishwashers and you have washing machines, so life must be very easy for you. I said, well, yes, we have those conveniences, but we’ve figured out how to make life hard for ourselves in other ways. (Laughter.) You know, whereas, you know, maybe I glamorized, you know, some of the simplicity of life there. But also really got to hear firsthand some of the stories of how, you know, when you remove choice, you know, just the challenges that that ensue.

And, you know, it was at a point in time in Romania’s transition where it was no longer expected that if you went to university, you would have a job. And that was something that communism offered. You got a job, whether they needed you or not. And now, you know, here we are in this transitioning space, and people have to wrestle with those big questions, which ultimately would be beneficial for the economy but were painful at that moment. So you start to understand more of the complexities and nuances. And for me, that made me curious.

And I think that it’s very easy to be judgmental. It’s easy to be judgmental based on surface knowledge of things. And whenever I read something that shocks me or enrages me at this point in my career, and as a result of my time in Peace Corps, I really make the effort to dig in and try and understand, with an open mind and with curiosity, both sides.

Ms. Ali: Yeah. And I feel like what you’re saying is applicable today, right, those – we still have ongoing conversations about the complexities, the nuances. People’s perceptions abroad of the U.S. And I even think about, as you were saying that, Carol, people’s perceptions abroad of who is American and what does it mean to be American.

Ms. Spahn: Exactly.

Ms. Ali: And I know we’ll talk a little bit later about that, but I’ve been thinking a lot as I’ve looked at all the really creative campaigning that the Peace Corps has been doing to attract talent, really thinking about who’s this for, right? Is every American included in that? And the importance of making sure that every American, no matter your background, no matter where you grew up – in Kansas, in Iowa, in California – that you have the – you have a chance, and you will be welcomed in an institution like the – like the Peace Corps.

You were making me think a lot about my days in college in Missouri and having to explain to people that, you know, no, not all people in Egypt live, you know, in the pyramids, or – (laughter) – you know, we have cars. You know, all that sort of thing. But you realize that the media controls a lot of times, people’s perceptions. And it really matters to have – I called myself an ambassador at that time in college – to make sure that people have a different perception of not only Egypt, the Middle East, really, because the nuances weren’t there, and I would argue that’s still persistent until today.

Well, your time in Romania was very impactful for many, many reasons, but also that’s where I believe you met your life partner, your husband, as well, when you were serving in Romania?

Ms. Spahn: We actually went to Romania as a married couple.

Ms. Ali: Ah.

Ms. Spahn: Yes. So we do accept married couples. And it’s a terrific experience, you know, for couples to engage in. It was a little bit less common back then, because it can be hard to place people at the same site and in the same country. So we did wait quite a while to be able to be placed. But it was a tremendous experience to go through that with him.

Ms. Ali: Now, Carol, as you know, we ask all of our guests to bring a memento, something that represents a meaningful moment in your career. Could you share with us here what you brought and why you decided to bring this to share with us today?

Ms. Spahn: Sure. Well, I brought a book. And the book is called “Aproape Totul Despre Managementul Intreprinderilor Mici Si Mijlocii,” which in Romanian is “almost everything about the management of small- and medium-sized enterprises.” So I went to Peace Corps as a small business development volunteer. So you can imagine that, again, after communism you’re going from big state enterprises, and suddenly people have the opportunity to own and manage their own businesses, but have not had the experience. And there literally were no textbooks in Romanian.

And we had a business group there of people with all kinds of different expertise – from marketing and communications, to logistics, to finance and, you know, other things. And so we got our group together. We all wrote different chapters. We got a grant to translate it into Romanian. And, for me, that’s where this story ended. So I lived and worked for two years, worked at a small business consulting center, met lots of entrepreneurs. And we were leaving as this project was winding up.

I was contacted a couple of years ago by the head of that small business consulting center, who I hadn’t been in touch with for quite some time. And, you know, he learned I was directing Peace Corps right now. And he reminded me about this book, and told me that it had been used throughout the country for several years, that they ran a second edition. So things I just never knew –

Ms. Ali: You had no idea.

Ms. Spahn: I had no idea. And he commented about how important it was. And for me at that moment, I was – when I was serving, I was four years out of college. So I had some experience. There were other people in my group who were much more experienced on the – on the business side. But you just don’t know, right? You don’t know what impact you may have, whose life you may touch. And I’ve stayed in touch with other people, you know, who I lived and worked with, and that’s been incredibly special to me.

But sort of this book represents both that longstanding connection, but also it was the first time that I was able to see how my background in accounting, in finance, in business, could translate into something meaningful and mission driven. And that’s why I brought it today, because it has so many elements of my story sort of in it, and with my group as well. So very proud to have worked with several members of our team. My husband was a co-author. My co-site mate, Kevin Galinto (sp), was in there. So it’s just something I’m very proud of.

Ms. Ali: I love that. And I love the point about not even knowing sometimes the impact that you might have made. But I also love that you talked about the degree. Sometimes we talk to students and they think, because I have a degree in accounting or finance or business administration that means that a journey in international development or in politics is not for me. But that shows us that you can have a very non-linear path. And no matter what your educational background is, you can find a way to serve – whether that’s in the Peace Corps or other institutions – to make that – to make that impact.

Ms. Spahn: Yes.

Ms. Ali: Carol, I know you spent quite a bit of time in both private and public sector afterwards. And there’s a quote that I listened to you say that I thought was very impactful, and I want to ask you a little bit more about it. You said in one of your interviews, “As a women leader it is necessary to be a chameleon in order to fit into different and changing roles.” What did you mean by that?

Ms. Spahn: Hmm, I don’t remember saying that, but it sounds great now. (Laughter.)

Ms. Ali: It is great.

Ms. Spahn: Look, I think every role that you take on requires a different skill set. And when I was a CFO at an organization that invested in small- and medium-sized businesses, my role was to be a rule enforcer. And I worked with a lot of innovative, you know, really forward-leading thinkers in countries around the world who were trying to do great things. And so I was the bad guy. And that was not fun, but that was my role. And, you know, moving into a role like the one I’m in now is just such a great gift to be, again, with a lot of people who are doing very innovative things, and I get to cheerlead and inspire and learn from those people who are doing great things on the ground. And, you know, we have our people who make sure we’re doing it all by the book.

So I think you just have to sort of understand both where an organization is, right, because the Peace Corps that I’m leading now is very different from the Peace Corps I inherited, which still had no volunteers in the field because we evacuated everybody due to COVID-19. So you also have to adapt within a role over time as the organization evolves. And I see now that adaptability, that flexibility – all of those skills that I really honed in the Peace Corps – are what gives me those skills to be an effective and adaptable leader.

Ms. Ali: You talked about making decisions. Sometimes you make decisions, everyone is happy about it on your team, and sometimes you have to be the one to make those hard decisions. Do you feel like, looking back, that the way people reacted to some of those decisions were because you were a woman? Or was it solely because of the decisions that you were making at the time?

Ms. Spahn: You know, I think it’s a job of any leader to bring people along so that they understand decisions. And I think it’s a function of the role more than the gender, or other sort of characteristics of the person, and how well you’re communicating. And there have been times I’ve done it well and times I wish I could go back and do it all over again. Because I think that you’re not always going to make the most popular decision but, going back to integrity, you want to be able to make the best decision for the organization. And help people to see that even though it might not be what they were recommending, to understand.

Ms. Ali: I ask because I – as I’ve talked to different women leaders, they’ve said to me, you know, I made this decision, and then I got certain reactions. And I wonder, is it really because of the decisions that I made or because people are expecting me to be a certain way, right? Because I was very stern, right? I was very direct. And maybe they don’t have an expectation that I should be responding in that way. So that’s why I ask that, because I wonder navigating – not only making this decisions, but at times navigating how will that be perceived, right? And as a woman, or a person with whatever identity you want to add, sometimes there are certain biases that show up for people. And having to navigate that is also quite the skill.

Ms. Spahn: It is. And I think different organizations are very different themselves in their character. And so I’ll go back to the investment – the small equity investment firm. It was a financial environment, male dominated. And, you know, you could really just cut to the chase and be very direct and, you know, that’s just the way it was in that sector. And Peace Corps is about relationships. It’s about connection. It’s about inclusion. It’s about participation. It’s the way we do everything that we do. And so in that environment, you know, any leader needs to bring people along in a very different way.

Ms. Ali: And needs to adapt, like you said, to the mission of the organization – even if they worked in investment banking and now that they’re Peace Corps, they need to adapt to what is the mission of the organization, how to ultimately motivate people and bring them together to make sure that they’re meeting the mission of the organization.

Ms. Spahn: Exactly.

Ms. Ali: Well, you come back to the Peace Corps several times. And I’m going to ask you why, because there must be a reason. You returned to the Peace Corps as the country director for Malawi. Why did you decide to come back in that role?

Ms. Spahn: I think that when working in the field of international development, having that experience on the ground is very, very important in understanding the realities of what’s happening at the community level. I had that when I did Peace Corps. I came back to the U.S. I worked in a variety of roles that were primarily headquarters roles. And when I was at Women for Women International, you know, at a senior level capacity, I started to realize that I had gotten too disconnected from what was happening on the ground. So that was a major factor in sort of deciding to apply to be a Peace Corps country director, because I wanted to be on the ground. I wanted to be connected to the work.

From a personal standpoint, the timing was such that if we didn’t do it when we did it – our kids, who went with us, they were going into their sophomore and senior years in high school – we wouldn’t have been able to do it as a family. So there was that timing issue. And then, you know, I got the call with an offer, you know, just a couple of months after having learned that my brother only had a few months to live. He had been diagnosed with brain cancer and had been fighting it successfully for, you know, four and a half, five years. And he was told he didn’t have any time left.

And we all sort of looked at each other and said, we have to live. You know, we have to take risks. We have to, you know, embrace uncertainty and be a part of the world. And we can’t let fear get in the way of really putting ourselves out there. And so that was such a very challenging time. And in some ways, I feel like that call from Peace Corps offering the position at that time, you know, call it – call it fate, call it divine intervention, call it what you want to, but we were very much called to go, you know, in that moment. And I am so glad we did.

Ms. Ali: Thank you for being open with the – with your story, and that level of vulnerability. I think it stresses also the fact that, you know, on resumes, on bios, we see all these incredible accomplishments, but there are things also happening behind the scenes – really difficult personal decisions, personal challenges that are going on, that leaders are having to make. And seeing that level of vulnerability from leaders I think adds so much to their credibility as well.

And, Carol, you mentioned earlier being very disconnected after a while from, you know, being at the headquarters. I’m imagining also for Peace Corps volunteers, seeing a director of the Peace Corps that was a volunteer, that spent time around the world, adds to your own credibility as a leader to really understand the work that the Peace Corps does, and not just sitting in Washington, D.C., right?

Ms. Spahn: (Laughs.) Absolutely, it does. And we’ve got some incredible people on the team who have had different experiences around the world, not necessarily with Peace Corps, who also add a lot to the team. I think what was particularly important at this moment is that we lived through COVID. We lived through the evacuation together. We started the rebuilding process. And then I stepped into this role, really, with a lot of nuts-and-bolts ability to roll up my sleeves and figure out how we could get back, and get back safely around the world.

Ms. Ali: Yeah. Carol, you’re the 21st director of the Peace Corps, the third woman in a row to lead the Peace Corps. And before then, the last woman to serve as director was in 1995. Do you ever think – look back and think about what does that mean for the history of the Peace Corps, and what does it mean to be where you’re sitting today, and where you’re moving the organization forwards?

Ms. Spahn: Mmm hmm. Well, I was very, very privileged to work with both of the former directors, Carrie Hessler-Radelet came to visit me while I was a country director in Malawi. And I learned so much from her in the way she personally engaged with all the members of our staff, with host government officials, her warmth, her engagement. And then with Jody Olsen at headquarters. And she’s the one who had to make that really devastating decision, which I know was incredibly hard to make, to evacuate all of our volunteers globally for the first time ever. So I think that I’ve – standing on the shoulders of giants, to be sure. And just very privileged to sit in this position and have the opportunity.

And I find the history of this moment to really be about how do we engage in the world in a post-COVID environment? And how are people showing up and willing to, you know, put that optimism and hope into action. How are we really connecting as human beings? How are we getting out from behind our screens? You know, so using the screens, and using the efficiencies, and all of those things, but connecting across borders. And I find that to be an incredibly profound moment, and really hope to inspire people of all ages, all backgrounds, to really be a part of that with us.

Ms. Ali: And making sure that we have learned from COVID-19, and really thinking about what does that mean moving forward. I find sometimes it’s as if organizations or folks have forgotten, you know, that we lived through that, and making sure that we are really taking lessons from that moving forward. I know, Carol, I’m sure you travel a ton as part of your role. I want to highlight one of your latest trips in March. You were in Sri Lanka for the swearing in of 20 Peace Corps volunteers. What was that experience like?

Ms. Spahn: Oh, my goodness, it was amazing. It was such a gift. So Peace Corps left Sri Lanka in 1989. That was our – sorry, 1998 – our last group of two-year volunteers to serve there. And it’s a country that’s, you know, been at war for a very long time. And to bring Peace Corps back was symbolic, not just for us but for the country. And we were so warmly welcomed, all the way from, you know, the president to the foreign minister, minister of education. The first lady spoke at the swearing in.

And what was so special about it, that I hadn’t heard previously, was in Sri Lanka English is a language of peace. It is a language of peace that brings together the Tamil and the Sinhala communities. And so the volunteers who were going out to teach English, it really meant something profound about how the nation starts to heal. And the way that the volunteers were even leaving their host families – so when they – when they go, they go through two and a half, three months of training. They live with host families. They learn the local language.

And as they were leaving their host families, their host families were riding bikes behind the van to say the final goodbyes, crying, you know, wondering how their newfound sons and daughters were going to fare at their permanent sites. And then when they got to their permanent sites, some of them had parades. I mean, it really was just this outpouring of welcome and love and embrace. And that’s the beauty of what happens when people come together across cultures and across difference, and really open their hearts and homes. And we see that around the world with host families who don’t need to – don’t need to necessarily do that. And they really embrace our volunteers in a very special way, that keeps them connected to that country for the rest of their lives.

Ms. Ali: Yeah. And you realize how much we’re similar, right? We have so much – so much in common. I have quite a few friends in D.C. that are Peace Corps volunteers. And even – it’s such a close-knit community. It always made me a little bit jealous. They always do things together, even years after, and even if they weren’t volunteering in the same countries. They found ways to build a community here in D.C., and I know in other parts of the U.S.. So there’s something really special about how the Peace Corps brings people together.

Now this year is the 63rd anniversary of the Peace Corps. I’m certain that the way that the Peace Corps has recruited talent and their outreach strategy has evolved quite a bit throughout the years, for many internal, external reasons. I was very impressed by the bold invitation campaign that you’ve launched last year. I want to ask you a little bit more about that, but before we do that I know we have a video that we want to show our audience here. So let’s take a look.

Announcer: (From video.) Are you looking for more in this world? Then we are looking for you. The big hearted, the bold, those driven by purpose. We are the Peace Corps – volunteers, partners, communities – in more than 60 countries, bringing our experience joy and passion to building a better world together. Are you ready to serve boldly? To go the distance to make a difference? Then we have a place where you belong. Join us.

Ms. Ali: Are you ready to serve boldly? Carol, I was telling you earlier about that question. It really struck with me, that who’s this for, right? And making sure that the diversity of the United States is represented when we ask that question, and making sure that we’re keeping that as we’re thinking about who we’ve recruited typically, and who’s missing. And so could you tell us a little bit more about the inspiration behind this campaign?

Ms. Spahn: Absolutely. But, first, I’d like to say that there is still time for you to be part of that club. (Laughter.)

Ms. Ali: OK. Good to know.

Ms. Spahn: We’d love – we’d love to have you.

Ms. Ali: It’s not too late. (Laughs.)

Ms. Spahn: We’d love to have you. You know, Peace Corps really is a family. And I think it’s the shared values of cultural respect, humility, learning language, how we engage with communities, that really defines who volunteers are, and then what values they bring home with them. And so as we were designing this bold invitation campaign, we wanted first and foremost to show just the broad diversity of volunteers who are currently serving. So all of the people in the spots are currently serving volunteers. They were shot on location. I was able to meet with several of them in Morocco, which was fabulous.

And Peace Corps really does have a spot – it is a place for people of all ages and all backgrounds. So I had a volunteer serving with me in Malawi who was 82. And she was amazing. She was a pistol. And we want everyone to see themselves in Peace Corps, because it is such a transformational opportunity, such an incredible pathway to new careers and opportunities. But most importantly, it represents who America is to the rest of the world. And it opens this dialog around the world as we seek to understand the different ethnic communities in Sri Lanka, and as we try to explain who we are as Americans, which is a melting pot.

And it’s a beautiful thing. And there are some very difficult discussions that happen along the way as people sort of struggle with what it means to be an Egyptian American in Sri Lanka or Malawi, or wherever you might be serving. But it’s really important, deep work. So we wanted to make sure that this campaign reached people in such a way that it helped them to feel empowered, emboldened, and where they saw themselves in the Peace Corps. And I was thinking about one of my volunteers, again, in Malawi. Grew up in L.A. The first time he was ever on an airplane was to come to Malawi to serve in the Peace Corps.

And he showed up and was an English teacher. Had no English background, but a great – you know, experienced great energy around arts and theater, brought that to life during service, and was planning to go back to L.A. and, you know, maybe teach, maybe do something in communications. And he has just continued to serve in so many different ways. He served with various organizations supporting homeless populations in L.A. He mentored young men in L.A. And now he’s doing a Fulbright scholarship in Kenya. And he said he just never would have imagined those kinds of opportunities. And we want to make sure that those people know about those opportunities and, again, see themselves and know that they belong here.

Ms. Ali: I learned something new, because I thought you had to be, you know, in your early twenties, mid-twenties to volunteer. I had this idea, right, the Peace Corps. You have to be, you know, just graduated from college in order to think about the Peace Corps. So it’s really encouraging to hear that you’re considering all diversity. And it’s also it’s never – it’s never too late to think about a new path. Even if you spent time in another industry or sector, there’s always an opportunity to think about the Peace Corps in general. I think thinking about service is so important. I think about surveys that target Gen Z – or, Gen Zs and younger millennials. And they want that higher purpose. They want to work for organizations that are doing good in the work – doing good in the world. So it’s great to see that Peace Corps is an example of that.

Ms. Spahn: Absolutely, absolutely. And, you know, we’ve seen people who, you know, come from a law degree, from finance, like myself, from all different industries. And, you know, there are opportunities that are what you might consider our traditional two-year opportunities. And for some people with different very targeted technical skills, there are what we call Peace Corps Response, that are nine months to a year. Actually, some are a little bit shorter. But, you know, those are other opportunities as well. So there are a lot of different ways to get involved. And I really encourage people to go and check it out.

Ms. Ali: Well, Carol, to close our conversation here today we always like to ask our guests three questions, rapid fire. Are you ready?

Ms. Spahn: I’m ready.

Ms. Ali: OK. What are three words you would use to describe your career?

Ms. Spahn: Unexpected, challenging, and beautiful.

Ms. Ali: In your opinion, what does it mean to be American?

Ms. Spahn: To have a can-do attitude and get out there and solve problems through action.

Ms. Ali: And what is giving you hope right now?

Ms. Spahn: This next generation. I think people are questioning the status quo in ways that new generations should and can, and we have this beautiful moment to define what the future looks like in this post-COVID world. And I’m very encouraged.

Ms. Ali: And we hear that quite a bit from our guests.

Carol, thank you very much for your leadership. Thank you for taking the time to share your story, but also to hear about the work that the Peace Corps is doing to attract America’s talent – and that means the most diverse talent.

Ms. Spahn: Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me.

Ms. Ali: Thank you.

You heard it yourself, transformative, life changing, eye opening. That is the journey of a Peace Corps volunteer turned Peace Corps director. Thank you for tuning in to today’s conversation. You can find more episodes of Driving Impact on YouTube or wherever you listen to podcasts.

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