Fostering Transformative Leadership: The Mandela Washington Fellowship

This transcript is from a CSIS podcast published on September 5, 2024. Listen to the podcast here. 

Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: Welcome to Into Africa. My name is Mvemba Phezo Dizolele. I'm a senior fellow and the Director of the Africa Program at the Center for Strategic and International Studies. This is a podcast where we talk everything Africa: politics, economics, security, and culture. Welcome.

This year, 2024, marks the 10th year anniversary of the launch of the Mandela Washington Fellowship. The flagship program of the Young African Leaders Initiative, formerly known as YALI, established by the United States government in 2014. Through the fellowship, African individuals aged 25 to 35 participate in the six-week leadership institute studying business, civic engagement, or public management at US colleges, which culminate in a summit where a participant can network and engage in high level workshops right here in Washington DC. The program aims to empower young, accomplished Africans who have shown great leadership in their communities by giving them the opportunity to improve their skills and network with each other, as well as experts in their respective fields. The Mandela Fellowship now has an alumni network of nearly 6,500 people from every country in sub-Saharan Africa.

As alumni of the fellowship, these individuals have access to incredible opportunities to further strengthen their leadership and innovation. Some of these opportunities, of course, involve getting connected with people with certain profile, getting grants to implement impactful project in the communities, and collaborate with other alumni from all over the continent, as well as a variety of virtual and in-person events.

So 10 years on, we ask questions today. Is this a program that is worth pursuing? How have the connections that our fellows have built shaped where they are today? What would they tell young Africans who are considering these opportunities? Are there things that should be done differently or better?

So I have today in the studio, four of these fellows. Tefetso Nicolas Kelle, who's from Lesotho. Tefetso works as an attorney in Lesotho courts and is a youth leader with a keen interest in sustainable finance, international trade, and investment law. He is also the founder and chairman of the Nicolas Kelle Forum, an intellectual and interpersonal discourse platform dedicated to developing a culture of dialogue and thought leadership among young people.

As well as we are joined by Sarah Funmilayo Kuponiyi from Nigeria. Sarah is the founder of Alora Reusable Pads, which produces affordable, usable pads in Nigeria. This of course is intended to address period poverty and menstrual health issues to improve the lives of women and girls in her native country of Nigeria.

Finally, but not least, is Pape Mamadou Camara, who is a 2016 fellow, a real alum, who's from Senegal and a specialist in communications with experience in NGOs, corporate marketing, and strategic development. His passion also includes the art and hip-hop culture, which led him to co-found G-Hip Hop in Dakar, Senegal. But I understand, he also is involved in combating desertification in the Sahel. So lady and gentlemen, welcome to Into Africa.

Sarah Kuponiyi: Thank you.

Pape Mamadou Camara: Thank you so much

Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: How is this experience panning out and playing out for you? I'll start with you, Sarah.

Sarah Kuponiyi: The experience has been amazing. The first six weeks, uh, posted to Jackson State University in Mississippi, where I learned some business, learned a lot of design thinking, customer discovery, started my social enterprise three years ago. So I know I needed knowledge in order to run my business. Having- Have over five years experience in the development sector, so it's like something I needed. I wasn't disappointed, I learnt a lot. And I also had Southern Hospitality at Mississippi.

Coming to the summit, being in the room with over 700 fellows was very energizing. Seeing people making impact in their various community. But what stood out for me or the highlight for me was when at the opening ceremony I got the shout-out from the ambassador of the United States to the United Nations, Ambassador Linda Greenfield-Thomas, uh, where she gave a shout-out to me based on the work I do in Nigeria. It made me feel like, oh, I thought what I'm doing is little in my community. Championing gender equality and public health. But getting that makes me feel like I could keep doing more in the community.

Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: A good welcome. So, how was it to being Mississippi Jackson State and University in Mississippi?

Sarah Kuponiyi: I experienced southern hospitality. Before coming to the US I thought maybe you know, everyone... 'Cause I've been to the UK and I know how the life is. Every one is minding their business. But getting to Mississippi you get to see people smiling at you, saying hello to you. So, it's kind of like, wow, so it's a good experience.

Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: It felt like home.

Sarah Kuponiyi: Yeah, felt like home. Yeah.

Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: Very good. Tefetso.

Tefetso Nicolas Kelle: Yes sir.

Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: Lesotho is a long way from Washington. That's really A- Africa's down under.

Tefetso Nicolas Kelle: Yes, yes.

Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: How was the experience for you?

Tefetso Nicolas Kelle: The experience was majestic. I was posted to Boise, Idaho. The home of potatoes. And so I ate a lot of potatoes and I saw a lot of mountains. Boise is more like Lesotho, because Lesotho is a mountainous country. In fact we call ourselves the mountain kingdom. So, getting to see the beauty of the mountains, and how they were managed was quite beautiful. I learnt a lot in the leadership institute, but what stands out for me was the session on negotiation and the art of influencing people. How do you get people to subscribe to your coarse? How do you influence change without people feel like you're imposing it on them?

So this talks about shared ownership of the development agenda. This talks about servant leadership, and these are subjects which are close to my heart, and they really stood out for me.

Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: Very good. Welcome. So you can convince anybody of anything now?

Tefetso Nicolas Kelle: Yes, I can.

Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: You feel that way, empowered?

Tefetso Nicolas Kelle: Yes, I can sir.

Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: Very good. Pape, to you. It’s been a few years since you’ve done yours but you're back.

Pape Mamadou Camara: I'm back. And I'm spending time, uh, this week with the fellows make me feel kind of old. (laughs) It feels mature I'll say, some bigger positive.

Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: Mature, I'll say.

Pape Mamadou Camara: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's an amazing experience. I've been here eight years and I was based in New York City, Wagner College in Staten Island. So it was an amazing experience. It was beautiful. Like a lot to learning, a lot of experience, uh, that has not only shaped the rest of my career. People I've met there, all the learning that I've done and with what I've seen technically, it makes me realize that I have... The potential is much more, you know.

I feel like, uh, coming to the fellowship, you open up your eyes to the possibilities. Guess that's what they experience with the 2024 fellow and that us that are more mature and older, I think that's what have... I have also experienced eight years ago.

Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: Let's talk a little bit about, you know, this study when President Obama was president. It was right after the first, what they call US-Africa Leadership Summit. Yeah. The last one we had was just, uh, two years ago. Took eight years to do the next one. It was herald as a very important initiative. From where you were in Senegal, in Lesotho, in Nigeria, how did you imagine it to be? What was the process like? And if you were to do it again will you do it again? I think for Pape we already know the answer. Tefetso we'll star with you. How was that experience.

Tefetso Nicolas Kelle: I'll definitely do it again and again and again. The process of applying is quite intensive as well. I understand that there were 53,000 applicants this year. So this tells you that it was quite a wide pool to choose from. And I find myself privileged to have made it this far. So, you first start by expressing your interest into participating under the POCEM. You basically sell yourself out, uh, and put yourself out there through your essays and communicating what you're doing in your local community to the institute stuff. There will be a short list. Short listed candidates are then taken for interviews. And then after the interview, I'm not really familiar with what happens internally.

So, uh, we were advised that the selection process is made in- here in DC. The whole process goes, and then there's that unforgettable moment when you receive an email from IREGS informing you that you have been selected.

Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: So how did you hear about the program? Are you right in the city?

Tefetso Nicolas Kelle: Yes, I'm right in Maseru, the capital of Lesotho. So, I've done a lot of work collaborating with the US embassy in Lesotho. So, I came to know of YALI, the program, when I was about 17 years old and then I was fortunate enough to get into the regional program, which is the YALI Regional Leadership Center in South Africa. It takes youth from the 14 other countries to go into South Africa for three weeks, and we get to learn about leadership as well. It's a sister program to this.

This year, I applied for this one and I was admitted into the program. Like my friend Pape said, it really is transformative. If I were to be asked what the program did for me, I would say it ushered me to the best of myself.

Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: So 17 you said. You were 17 back then. This was how long ago?

Tefetso Nicolas Kelle: I'm 25 now.

Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: And Sarah.

Sarah Kuponiyi: Yeah.

Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: Are you in Lagos or are you in Abuja.

Sarah Kuponiyi: So, I reside in Cross River State.

Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: Cross River.

Sarah Kuponiyi: Yeah.

Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: You're not even in Lagos, not Abuja. You're in Cross River.

Sarah Kuponiyi: But Lagos is my home. So I was born and brought up in Lagos but I work in Cross River State.

Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: Okay, so in Cross River State. And how did you hear about this and how was the process for you?

Sarah Kuponiyi: Similar to Tef, I've known about YALI Network while I was in the university. I was one of the pioneering coordinator in Lagos in Cross River State. Before then I was a member in Legos State, um, so before I moved to Cross River State. And then when I got there I realized there was no YALI network. That's for the face to face engagement in the state, and then with other young people who- who knew about the network, we started the network in Cross River State, and I was a pioneering member. And I also had the opportunity of attending the RLC for West Africa in Ghana.

Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: That's a regional-

Sarah Kuponiyi: Yeah, the regional program in 2019 on the civic engagement track learning how to run my social ent- my NGO, 'cause I also run a not for profit. But coming to Mandela Washington Fellowship, uh, I think Nigeria has the highest applications for the fellowship. Over 10,000 applicants.

Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: For how many spot?

Sarah Kuponiyi: For 55 or there about. So imagine 10,000 people are applying and you have the standard... I think the standard is so high for us. And then it's beaten down to or reduced to like, um, 200 for the interview. So this is my second attempt. I applied before. That was in 2019, I didn't get it. I got to the interview stage but I knew I didn't do very well at the interview stage. So this second attempt I've improved on my work, I've done more in the community and I've been able to learn how to tell my story. I'm learning from the YALI RLC program that I've done before.

So I was able to pull that, tell my story, what I'm doing at the community level. And that helped me get into the interview, and I did well.

Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: Tefetso, negotiations was apparently the highlight of his time here. For you, with that southern hospitality, besides eating peach cobbler and all the good food from the south, what was the high point?

Sarah Kuponiyi: The high point is, you know, learning about customer discovery. So, like I said, I've been ru- running my business for three years now. I have experience in the development, um, not-for-profit, so business is new to me. So, learning more about customer discovery and innovation, now I could run my business as well as how I could make decisions. 'Cause they use like a software called market simulation to train us on, uh, conscious capitalism. So, if you're running a business, there are so many decisions you have to make about the business. Either, uh, where to pump money, where to increase your sales, where to site your market and the revenues.

And like using that as well has really helped me. So, going back home, I'm going to improve on my business. See the things that I need to do. My record keeping, you know, my account, I put things in place. So this has been very helpful for me.

Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: Fantastic. Pape, eight years ago what was the process? Do you still remember?

Pape Mamadou Camara: Yeah.

Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: How did you hear about the- the opportunity?

Pape Mamadou Camara: I do remember.

Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: What was your experience? And while you were at Wagnak University here what was the high point.

Pape Mamadou Camara: I think for me it was a different experience, because 2011, I think I was part of the US Embassy of Council in Senegal. So, in 2010, President Obama has already invited a group of young African and called that program "YALI." So, I had some of those YALI in Senegal, part of that youth concept. So, at the conception of the YALI, while it was like being taught here in DC and conceptualized I was... I knew about it.

So, back in 2014 I applied for the first time. I didn't reach the age so I wasn't selected. And I didn't apply for 2015 and I applied for 2016 and get it. So it was a total different experience. I think what they both said in terms of having experience in the YALI Regional Network and applying and reapplying, I think one of the main thing, a take back that most of the fellow gets from this fellowship is the process application. Because, most of us don't really like go through these type of process. If it's- if it's the first time applying for any type of fellowship. So right after the fellowship, most of the fellowship that I applied afterwards I got it.

Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: You became seasoned applicant.

Pape Mamadou Camara: Exactly, because you- you know how to apply, you know what- what d- what is- what is needed, you know how to like, quote unquote "market yourself" and convince. For me, my biggest take back from the fellowship is one of our Senegalese fellow goes Sebel Guye and said- and said that during this fellowship he met Africa. And I think we all can say that we don't quote unquote "know each other." Maybe I know Nigeria, because we're not that far. And Nigerians everywhere. (laughs) But you know, lot of fellows that was the first time they met someone from Lesotho, someone from Kenya, you know, someone from other- other countries in Africa. You know, one of our even fellow was like, where is Eswatini?

Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: Where is Eswatini?

Pape Mamadou Camara: Exactly. What is that. (laughs) Is that even a country? You know what I mean? So now, meeting and having friend from Eswatini is a whole total different experience. So the connection that we have, more than just like discov- Ame- America that is more like discovering the continent in the US. I think that was my biggest take back.

Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: Very good. It takes you to cross the Atlantic to discover your own continent. So in that sense, I think the US or US planners, people are IRX will say they have the convening then. They've managed to bring Africans together in ways that Africans don't do themselves on the continent.

Pape Mamadou Camara: And it's really powerful. And now we have like, you know, YALI babies, YALI marriage all around the continent.

Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: Yeah I heard that. I heard about that.

Pape Mamadou Camara: You know what I mean? And that's what's beautiful about the program. You know.

Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: I heard about it. How does the program, in terms of prestige, Pape you said, you've since applied to other fellowships and done well. So we have Shavining, we have many other very prestigious... How does YALI Mandela Washington Fellowship stuck up.

Pape Mamadou Camara: Hmm I just said it. Like it was like 53000 this year, and every year it was like that. I mean, when I become fellow, we were what? Maybe 2000 alum. This year we turn 7200, you know, and it's like, uh, really... And compare to like you know, the demography of Africa where you know, we have more than, I don't know, I don't want to say a number. And most of the population is actually young people. So, having that "crème," quote unquote coming here and being Mandela Washington Fellow and have it put it on your bio or your resume or whatever. You but it somewhere, he's a leader, uh, he's, he's well turned about it. So I think that- that kind of like market yourself and put you out there.

Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: Do people recognize that on your CV?

Pape Mamadou Camara: A lot of people ask. I mean, I've been interviewing not long time ago and they mentioned it. And they asked me about my experience. So that's what's the beauty about it. And Lord knows that I have like tons of other fellowship that I put in my resume. They didn't even mention it.

Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: Very good. Let's talk a little bit about your own backgrounds. Because obviously you have to be exceptional to beat 52,999 people to get a slot in this program, if there were 53,000 applicants. Or in the case of Nigeria, 10,000 applicants. So Sarah, you're here. Tell us a little bit what you do actually? So in your case, you talked about your business. I read that you are the founder of Alora Reusable Pads. What is that? And you talked about, in your profile here they talk about period poverty. What is that?

Sarah Kuponiyi: So, Alora Reusable Pads is a social enterprise that produces and distribute reusable pads at the grassroots. So ensuring that last mile sustainable solution to period poverty. So period poverty is lack of access to sanitary supplies. So, young girls experience this situation where they're not able to go to school when they're on their menstruation because they don't have access to sanitary supply or sanitary supply are quite expensive.

Currently now there's high inflation in Africa. And in April I went back to Ghana because I'm also conducting a research looking at, um, menstrual policies in English speaking West African countries. I went to Ghana, and I engaged with young girls. They shared their experience. There is high inflation on sanitary supplies. It's difficult for them to access this product, especially for those ones coming from poor homes. And this makes them to engage in so many things like transactional sex, just for them to be able to buy, um, pads. They do not pay attention in class. They miss out of school, because they'll rather stay at home than come to school and get stained and be mocked.

So, these are really challenges that have like overlapping impact to gender issues to health issues, even to education. It's something I'm passionate about because it's also my lived experience as a young girl growing up. So that's why I started um, the social enterprise. But before then, like I said, I run an non-for-profit, where it focuses on adolescent health as a whole and their overall development. So we use safe space strategy, um, social media strategy, to ensure that young people have access to information, for them to make healthy decisions about their life.

Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: In this case, menstrual health, well it's a serious part of our life first and foremost.

Sarah Kuponiyi: Yes.

Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: But then the way you're describing it it's a serious challenge. You are in that space but for profit. It's a social enterprise but it's also for profit. Is there an advocacy component? Because even in Kenya, with the protest that we saw, part of what drove people, made them upset, what that the cost of everything went up, including hygiene, uh, sanitary pads, which is a basic, really for every day's life. So, is there a bridge there? Because this cannot just be left to the entrepreneurs.

Sarah Kuponiyi: Yes.

Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: Government should be playing a role.

Sarah Kuponiyi: Yes.

Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: This is health. It's public health.

Sarah Kuponiyi: Like I mentioned earlier, I'm currently conducting a research looking at... Because for us we have like short term solutions and long term solution. Long term solution includes having policies in place by um, governments to ensure that there are legal frameworks that provides long terms solutions to these issues.

In Nigeria, we don't currently have health policies, although it's currently being developed by the Ministry of Women Affairs with support of other international partners. But when we have that, it's able to provide legal frameworks as well as accountability mechanisms where we ensure that um, Ministry of Health, Ministry of Women Affairs, Ministry of Education and Water Resources have like part of their budget that speaks to ensuring that there are sanitary supplies provided in public school and in public spaces.

It also have like committees. So these are part of the things that I'm pushing for. Why for my social enterprise. It is not entirely for profit because what we do is we work with NGOs, we manufacture, we employ young women, young people to work with us, so that also helps to provide job opportunity for them. When we manufacture them these NGO purchase them from us and then they use it for their project. And then we invest profit and back to the business for us to keep on producing.

Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: And this is of course reusable pads. How do you engage with the young girls themselves? You've talked about the element of education.

Sarah Kuponiyi: Yeah.

Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: Do you go to schools? Do you meet with elder women in communities? Because we talked about the government of course, but these all started-

Sarah Kuponiyi: Yeah, yeah. So we have community strategies that we use, right? Like I said, we use safe space, where we... the communities mobilizations and then they come to the safe space and we provide them menstrual health educations, using creation activities to ensure that it's something that's tailored, using tailored communication methods. We go to school as well. That's under our school campaigns. We call it a well informed adolescent campaign. This is done annually, and then we also leverage on social media as well to provide this information. Then we use, um, the community gate keepers like, uh, religious leaders, the traditional leaders to ensure that we have access.

Because we always do male engagements, because we've seen that young boys usually mock... Because girls when they're stained, because they're not away or they don't have information on what menstruation is all about, so we ensure that young boys are also engaged for them to be educated on menstrual health. So it's not about just the girls only.

Another thing that we do is like we have like a platform where we have like elderly people in the community. In Nigeria we have, um, nurses, but they're not like nurses in the hospital. They're usually in the house. So they are elderly women that young girls look up to them because cost of care, healthcare is there, so people go into the houses to get treated. So we also leverage on that for when young girls, when they engage with young girls they're able to provide them with menstrual health information. Not just that. If you want contraceptive uptake and overall surge of reproductive information.

Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: That's impressive work. Yeah, I hope you'll continue to receive the support you need, but also the advocacy part. I think it's important that government start taking up and taking the responsibility of it. I recently traveled, where I noticed that even on airplanes now, some air lines have pads in the bathroom. So it's not a question. We've heard stories of women getting stuck at an airport. And these are grown women who cannot get the pad because the airport don't even carry those.

So the- the... I think it's shifting. The narrative and the policy about... So, I continue challenging you to push more for the government to do something about this. Tefetso, what is it that got you here? What is it that got you here, what do you do back home and how do you do it and what should we know.

Tefetso Nicolas Kelle: Yeah. So I'm the founder and chairman of the Nicholas Kelle Forum, which is a social enterprise, uh, looking to stimulate the culture of dialogue and thought leadership when it comes to social economic issues in Lesotho. I for... My main focus is on the youth. I do believe in multi-disciplinary and dialogue. Because I like to have intellectual conversations, I like to have inter-personal conversations. So then, when I got to university in 2018, I realized that there were no avenues for such discourse within the university community.

So then, I called a couple of my friends and then I peached an idea to them. "Hey gentlemen, what can we do about this?" And then we agreed that I will establish a forum whereby we can have intellectual and inter-personal discussions on issues which concern the community. But also, issues which concern, not just the community, but the country and the entire world. So then, I wrote to the university and expressed my dream of establishing an avenue for such discourse, and that's how it started. Since then we have worked with a couple of other institutions to foster the- the discussion on issues which are affecting our world.

Um, primarily we focus on sustainable development goals because I do believe that there's need for every one to act and be a champion of the SDGs. So whenever we have a seminar, whenever we have a public lecture we try as best as we can to align the team for such and event to the SDGs.

Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: So you're a lawyer, you're not kind of the lawyer who try to indict people?

Tefetso Nicolas Kelle: No. (laughing) I- I'm a lawyer who believes in creating opportunities for people. I'm a lawyer who believes that where there's dialogue there's room for enlightenment. And were there's room for enlightenment there's room for reform. But even better than that, I believe in a shared course. Shared courses have shaped civilization after civilization. And so I believe that when people are able to discuss issues, they're more likely to be the champions of the solutions of the- over those issues. And so then, I believe in the shared ownership of the course, and I believe that my platform gives me the ability to share my dreams, to share my concerns with people in my community.

Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: It's very interesting. I don't know if you've ever heard of Ronal Kholes, uh, he's a University of Chicago professor. He kind of pioneered this way of looking, even at the legal profession, through settlement, through dialogue, through settling your issues through these exchange.

Pape Mamadou Camara: I think we started that in the continent first, right?

Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: Well, the elders, uh, young time ago. Right.

Tefetso Nicolas Kelle: Yes, yes.

Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: Long time ago that's how they elders did. They didn't go to court, they went to the council and they tried to find a way forward.

Tefetso Nicolas Kelle: Yes, yes. There's an interesting story about the Khoikhoi who are basically descendant rather, who came before the Bantu speaking people. Whenever they had a dispute, someone in the village would secretly take out take out all the weapons and hide them. So that whatever happens, whatever... No matter how heated the discussion becomes there will be no weapons. People will not be able to fight and kill each other. So rage will do whatever it is. But the end of the day we'll come back to the table to negotiate.

Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: Well, hopefully there's always fist you know. No need to bring weapons, you know, masses of destruction, we call this. Pape.

Pape Mamadou Camara: Yes.

Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: 2016, you are into communication. You're doing strategy, marketing and so on. How do you go from there to here? But also I see that you've co-founded G-HipHop and then you do desertification, at least. You're a renaissance man over there.

Pape Mamadou Camara: Yeah.

Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: Where do you find the time?

Pape Mamadou Camara: Right now I'm just focused on my communication skills and this is what I do. And working with, uh, and international organization. I think when I joined the fellowship I was ore into using creative arts to create possibilities and bring about solution in youth and quote unquote "bad neighborhood" in Dakar. So basically what we're doing is using hip hop, using art and culture to give them those opportunity. We had a whole training program from music and art itself to the creative part. How to record, how to shoot a video, how to create a flyer, how to do all those like jobs around music and around the creative industry.

You- you don't just have to be creative to be with us, but if you wanna have a second opportunity at something else we have something so we can accommodate everybody. That is all we're doing, and training over 200 young people in Dakar every year. And at the same time I was working for another also non-profit in Dakar working on the Sahel region and engaging social entrepreneur all around Sahel using my communication skills. And um, when I came back from the fellowship I was just like, I wanna know more about corporate, I wanna... I'm seeing non-profit, I'm seeing that something is not working lately in terms of communications.

And that's why I end- ended up in a big corporate name... American corporate name that was working also in... That was based in Senegal and working also in the Sahel and Western and Central Africa. Work on digital communication for them and communication strategy and ended up where I ended up... where I am right now, you know what I mean? And we're... Uh, I think that's just like a whole process for me. Of course, using my passion and whatever I love to do 10 years ago brought me to help the fellowship, but also realize that we can have much more impact than other sector. And my background as a comms person helped me to like be more “cross-vessel" quote unquote, to also work on other subject that I like. Not more, but that I also like, as important as you know, youth education and all that.

So today I'm in desertification drought issue and degradation, and uh, working for example for a big, uh, project in Africa called the Great Green Wall. An initiative that is, quote unquote "an imaginary" that's how we wanna put it. Building a wall of tree from Senegal to Djibouti, but also creating a value chain throughout that region.

Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: And how is that coming?

Pape Mamadou Camara: I mean it's a, its'- it's coming.

Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: I've read about it.

Pape Mamadou Camara: It's challenging. It's challenging but it's moving forward. I think like countries, like, are getting more and more and more dedicated to- to make it happen. But today the Sahel also like is facing like different issues, more than just like humanitarian, also security issues. Everything that we know about- about that. So it's harder to implement the project. On the last assessment it was about less than 10% that was accomplished.

Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: And that in terms of planting trees?

Pape Mamadou Camara: In terms of just planting trees and creating quote unquote "the wall." But in terms of value chain and creating solution and creating like opportunities for people that live round that wall is actually much small and much bigger. So different partner worked... work on it. We have recently also the One Planet Summit in Paris that focus on it. Billion of dollar of commitment of countries, they're still working on it. And hopefully by 2030, this is going to be the next assessment that we will see a great difference. And, uh, it is around the corner. We'll see.

Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: And then you say G-hip hop. Is this hip hop on French? What is G-hip hop? What is the G for?

Pape Mamadou Camara: G (laughs)... G is for Gajewey. Gajewey is a neighborhood in Dakar. It's from the suburbs of Dakar, so it was... We started it but... with, uh, a couple of artists that leaves in the neighborhood and I'm from the neigh- that neighborhood my self. Artist that go [inaudible 00:30:43] for example, it was bought around the same time. It's like how we can use hip hop to bring about change, basically.

Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: It's in Wolof?

Pape Mamadou Camara: Gejewey is, uh... Yeah, I guess it's Wolof now. (laughs) But hip hop is hip hop, you know.

Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: H- Hip-hop, hip-hop. Regardless whether it's in Wolof or French it's the message that counts, right?

Pape Mamadou Camara: Yeah.

Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: So there's... To the three of you I want to ask a question. This is an American initiative. What do you say to people who say, "Why should American taxpayers underwrite." Even many at the fellowships you probably mentioned, are all foreign funded.

Pape Mamadou Camara: Mm-hmm.

Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: Yeah, Shevining is British and so on. There's a question that people ask. Why can't Africans do this things themselves? So something I want to reflect a little bit out loud with you. And I'll start with you Tefetso. Why... It would be nice if the African Union can host a fellowship like this where everybody goes to Addis Ababa or to Khartoum or to Kinshasa, whatever.

Tefetso Nicolas Kelle: To start with, I think it's important to highlight that the African Union has a couple of initiatives which are youth oriented. The African Union Volunteer Core which plays a very important role in bringing about development in the continent and also investing in the future leaders. And now to your questions as to why American tax payers should fund programs such as this. I would say the world is now globalization. We live in a world where there's great diversity. We live in a world where there's greater mobility. The interaction of the peoples of Africa and the peoples of the United States is inevitable.

How might we use that to invest in the future of the world? This is very important because the world would work better when we have a meeting of minds. Now, how do we create that meeting of minds in this- in the fields of leadership. I think this is where this kind of programs come in. And I think this is the time when we as Africans as well should cast our vote of appreciation to the government of the United State for investing in the future, not just of Africa, but the future of the world.

Studies are showing that in few years Africa would be the human capital of the world. What kind of leadership would be in that human capital of the world? These are the questions we should be asking. And avenues such as this one give us the ability to think forward, to forecast the future and forge strategic relationships as to how we're going to rea- to realize that future.

Sarah Kuponiyi: Yeah, thank you very much. So, I'll add to what Tef said. There is Africa CDC, International Conference on public health which started like three years ago. They've had two sessions now. So, in that pre- conference they usually have the youth pre-conference. So I was part of it last year where they engaged with different public health practitioner, young people who are into health to be able to design programs that the continent needs, and also speak to the Africa Agenda 2060, so that also exist.

Also, I think, yeah, there is much to be done by African to- for them to you know, own these things themselves and have programs that are contextualized to our issues. Also there are... Programs are being run at the country level. Like some fellowship in Nigeria are being run by some government agencies as well as philanthropic organization like the Tony Elumelu Foundation. So these also exist. But yeah, it's understandable that there's still more that can be done. Because, African population, especially the youth, will become the most popular sub population compared to other continents in the nearest future. So, I know there's much to be done but there are still things being done in Africa.

Pape Mamadou Camara: Great. I think they- they responded to- to this question very well. A lot of things have been done every day, uh, on the UN perspective. We have Youth Connect as well. I think in terms of like foreign policy, the US is not only investing tax payer's money into Africa. There's also this program, it's... have also other version in other part of the world. We have YLAI Southern and Central- Central America. But I think like, every country has their own strategy and policy in terms of how to engage other part of the world. I think this one of the US one. To have like exchange programs. This one, IVLP, YLAI, PAYLF, Pan African Youth Leadership Program.

All those programs mean like how we connect, how America... the American government and American people connect more with the rest of the world. Of course, it's like investing in young African but also it's in- in another way also investing in America but with... by investing in Africans.

Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: Well, I'm very happy you're here. Congratulations, beating 52,000 more people to get here. On that note, Tefetso Nicolas Kelle, Pape Mamadou Camara, Sarah Funmilayo Kuponiyi, I would like to thank you for joining us on Into Africa today. I wish you well on your future endeavors and congratulations on your selection as YALI fellow.

Sarah Kuponiyi: Thank you very much.

Tefetso Nicolas Kelle: Thank you. Thank you so much.

Pape Mamadou Camara: Thank you. Congratulations to the 2024 fellows.

Sarah Kuponiyi: Yeah, thank you.

Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: Thank you for listening. We want to have more conversations about Africa. Tell your friends. Subscribe to our podcast at Apple Podcast. You can also read our analysis and reports at csis.org/africa. So long.

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