Navigating Africa’s Environmental Dilemma

This transcript is from a CSIS podcast published on April 24, 2025. Listen to the podcasthere

Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: Welcome to Into Africa. My name is Mvemba Phezo Dizolele. I'm a senior fellow and the director of the Africa Program at the Center for Strategic and International Studies. This is a podcast where we talk everything Africa. Politics, economics, security, and culture. Welcome.

In today's episode, we delve into one of the most pressing challenges of our time, climate change, and its impact on Africa. Despite contributing minimally to global carbon emissions, Africa faces a disproportionate share of the consequences of climate change from rising temperatures to extreme weather events and biodiversity loss. These challenges are compounded by ongoing debates of environmental policies, carbon markets, and the role of African nations in global climate negotiations.

Our guest, Tosi Mpanu-Mpanu, is an economist and climate change specialist with two decades of experience spanning finance, economic development, renewable energy, carbon market, and environmental diplomacy. He serves as the health safety and environment director at the Entreprise Générale du Cobalt, and has represented the Democratic Republic of Congo as a climate negotiator at the UN Climate Convention. He has also worked as a climate specialist at the Ministry of Environment.

The discussion will cover key climate issues Africa faces today. Are African nations being asked to bear the burden of mitigating environmental degradation caused by industrialization in the Global North, how should African leaders navigate carbon credit agreement with developed nations to ensure equitable and sustainable outcomes?

Joining me to unpack this, I'd like to welcome Tosi Mpanu-Mpanu. Tosi, welcome to Into Africa. Uh, we are happy that you can join us today.

Tosi Mpanu-Mpanu: Happy to be here. Thank you for having me.

Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: Let's start with the general sense of the landscape of this environmental diplomacy and relations that come from it. Where is the world today? There've been a lot of talk. We've had several COPs, we've had pledges and African countries are still out there wondering what is coming or what they should do. Can I walk us... Can you walk us through what is happening in that space?

Tosi Mpanu-Mpanu: Yes. So this year we are going to go to, um, COP30 in Brazil, uh, towards the end of the, the year, meaning that there's been 30 meetings, a little bit over 33 years of countries trying to, um, meet up and discuss about this conundrum, which is runaway climate change, which is affecting everyone which knows no border, which is, uh, creating uncertainty, which is creating, um, higher cost of development, especially to the most vulnerable and, and the poorest.

And we have no other choice, but meet up because a response which is not concerted is not efficient. So it is important to continue to sit around the table and trying to find a solution. It is a discussion where African countries engage on the united front because the 54 African countries make sure that they have one common position, which is based on the principle of not doing any harm to each other. So, a position which represent the African position, uh, would take into account all the national circumstances of all African nations, whether there are forest countries, whether there are countries which produce oil, whether there are countries that have deserts. We make sure that there is a position which is well-balanced to take into account everyone's, uh, position.

And African countries engage in this discussion, knowing that we only contribute to about 4% of global emissions. And historically, I think that when you look at all accumulated greenhouse gases in the atmosphere, we have only contributed to about 3%. Yet because of a lower development level, we happen to be more vulnerable to the effect of, um, climate change. So creates an issue about fairness and equity, uh, because we believe that some countries have taken most of the atmospheric space over the decades and they've gotten rich while today we are being asked to bear part of the burden so that we can respect the carbon budget that we have until the end of the century, which is limited.

So many African countries believe that first of all, the countries that have created this problem that they've polluted should be the one showing leadership in terms of climate action, ambitious climate action, and also in terms of, uh, resource mobilization, and the [inaudible], um, supply.

And unfortunately, what we have noticed in recent years is developed countries which are rich, which bear the biggest responsibility, running away from the responsibility. And we believe that if you are a country that has shown economic leadership, democratic leadership, military leadership, you ought also to show climate leadership. Um, so it is a conversation which has been rendered even more complex because now you have, um, some emerging countries which didn't have such a big responsibility in creating this climate change issue, but which are now becoming rich and which are becoming bigger polluters, yet not bearing the same historical responsibility as, uh, developed countries.

So, there is a whole spectrum of 200 countries under the helm of the United Nations Framework Convention, which each have different historical responsibility, which each have different development levels, and they all have to agree and see how we can jointly find a solution in order to deal with this climate change issue.

So this shows the complexity of this discussion because it's no longer a discussion containing the realm of environmental scope, but it goes beyond, it has implications as regard geopolitical influence, as regards um, economic competition. Uh, yet some principles must prevail, which is the one of historical responsibility, the one of common but differentiated, um, capacity. And the one where the ones we have created, this global arm, which is climate change to this global good, which is the climate must take the lead and do the fair share.

Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: It sounds very complicated, not just complex, you call it complex, but sounds like it's even more complicated than, uh, than, um, than we could have expected.

Let's start with the notion of concerted effort. You said, uh, the Africans, you are one of Africa's negotiators. You have led a lot of these processes over the years, and you said this is COP30 that is coming. How do 30... How, how do you get 54 countries to have a common front and have concerted effort in the way you say so that they can move forward as a one block?

Tosi Mpanu-Mpanu: First of all, you have to just have a pragmatic perspective and realize that if you are an African country and you try to go alone in this forum, which is the gathering of 200 countries, your voice will get diluted. So in order for you to, um, have a strong position, which needs to be a force to be reckoned with, uh, in order for you to have a level playing field when discussing with big emitters, in order for you to have some, uh, bearing on, on the course of the discussions, uh, to do some type of diplomatic, um, um, um, weight, uh, you, you need to, to be more than, uh, yourself.

So this is why African countries have decided to get together because 54 voices that speak on one common tone is a force to be reckoned with, is a force that cannot be ignored. And, and it takes internal negotiations, internal compromises in order to reach that common position. But that common position shows how willing we are to find a solution at the broader level. Because if 54 countries, which have different national priorities, different national circumstances, are able to come up with one common position that represent all of them, it shows that that can also be done in a larger setting.

And what's important through the structuring of that position, it's that it is one where we put our emotions on the side. We base the position on two objective elements. One is what science says. So those are objective, factual elements. And the other basis of that common position is the rule of law. What does the climate convention says? What COP decisions say, what outcomes of various environmental and, and climate, uh, discussions are.

So based on those two elements, the rule of law and what science does says climate experts come up with one common position, which is then endorsed at the ministerial level within the African Ministerial Conference and Environment. And that common position is then sent up, uh, at a higher political level at the conference of head of state on... African head of state on climate change, which is the CAHOSCC, which is also endorsed the- there. So that when we go and engage with partners, that common position is a huge political ownership, is a huge ownership because there is also, uh, inputs that we receive from civil society.

And it is the one common African position where we engage and where we tell partners, although we are the biggest victims of this climate change we have not created, we don't want to remain as victims. We want to be proactive. We are willing to undertake the two-pronged climate action, which consists of mitigation, reducing greenhouse gases and adaptation, which is adapting to the adverse effects of climate change.

But for us to have an ambitious climate action, we need to have more means of implementation. And those are three kinds. Climate finance, technology transfer, and capacity building. And our national government fund most of the climate action, which you can see on the ground, because when a bridge is washed away by a flood or there is a drought, it is our ministers of finance who are going to disperse the money for rapid action. But we need to make sure that the international communities then takes the relay so that we can face climate change, which we have not created.

So to make a long story short, Africa engages constructively in these negotiations saying that we willing to do more than we have to do because our responsibilities limited, when you look at the climate change problem at the global level, yet we are willing to do, uh, climate action and we can do more, granted, we have adequate climate support in the forms of finance, technology transfer and capacity building.

Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: On, on the point of, uh, concerted effort and, um, united front, how would you then assess the 2023 first Africa Climate Summit that happened in Nairobi? Is this, um, an extension of what you're saying, and how did that work out?

Tosi Mpanu-Mpanu: I think the, the African Summit was an important milestone because it was indeed the, the first time that African, uh, leaders, uh, gathered around the climate situation at such a level. And, and there was an African position which was adopted, which was, uh, hardly negotiated at the highest political level. And I think, which gave us some, uh, clarity and some important stand on the way to, um, COP28 in Dubai. Uh, uh, and before COP28 in Dubai, there was also climate summit in New York in the margins of the General Assembly.

Uh, it was very important because it showed that Africa was on top of its game, understood all the intricacies of the issue, understood that there was a need to scale up climate finance in order to, uh, be able to, uh, deter the adverse effect of climate change in a significant manner. It was also an opportunity to have a broad engagement because there was indeed a summit, but there was also involvement of, uh, civil society in its larger form, which means NGOs, but also the private sector.

So that Nairobi Summit was an important event that showed that, uh, Africa is well aware of, of the situation, well aware of the adverse effect on climate change and how it is hindering its development efforts and what the solutions are. And at the end of the day, basically Africa said that "I'm not part of the problem, I'm part of the solution. Let us find ways to mobilize the resources in order to be able to solve the problem."

Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: There's an issue here, um, of climate burden versus responsibility. You alluded to that earlier. Uh, despite contributing less than 4% of global greenhouse gas emissions, Africa is still, um, one of the most vulnerable regions to climate change. You mentioned climate finance, technology transfer, and capacity building, which I suppose drive us to the question of accountability, uh, from industrialized nations and some of the, uh, rising nations that you mentioned. How are these nations meeting Africans in those three areas of climate finance, technology transfer and capacity building?

Tosi Mpanu-Mpanu: Yes, that's an important question which, uh, you are, uh, putting there, uh, on the table.

Uh, I, I think it, it, it goes to illustrate the whole question of, uh, just transition. How can we make sure that African countries transition to a low emission development pathway, which is more resilient to the adverse effect of climate change without overly, uh, hindering our development, uh, potential.

So the, the whole issue of transition, uh, poses a situation where although some nations, developed countries especially, have gotten rich while using, uh, oil, gas, coal, today they're asking African countries not to use those resources. They're trying to make those resources stranded assets, uh, not allowing African nations to, uh, exploit those resources, asking multilateral development bank- banks not to fund any project having to do with oil, gas, and coal, although such project have the potential to create wealth and reduce poverty in Africa.

So this issue of just transition is one which is becoming at the center of the climate negotiations because there's a need for fairness to be applied where you need to allow for a country to gradually transition to a lower emission pathway without overburdening it, uh, by putting too much of a virtuous, uh, approach, while yourself as a developed country, you continue to invest in exploration of oil, exploration of gas.

And, and this is a very, um, hypocritical, it- it- it's a very, um, uh, mischievous, uh, behavior because basically some of the countries are telling us... Are saying us... Are telling us, "Do as I told you, but don't do as I do," because many of them continue to invest in, uh, oil exploration, oil production and, and, and coal and are asking developing countries not to do so. So this creates an issue of fairness because of course, we all need to do what is required for the future generations to make sure that the planets our children inherit from us is a planet where they can live.

Yet, like I said earlier, developed countries should show climate leadership in the form of higher ambition when it comes to action, whilst also fulfilling the financial pledges. Today, there is a yardstick, which we use, which is the OECD report on climate finance. And that OECD report is very clear. It shows that there is an, an unbalanced, uh, supply of, of, uh, climate finance. The bulk of climate finance goes to mitigation, which is how to reduce greenhouse emissions. Uh, while, uh, it is only a mi- minority of, of the finance that goes to adaptation. While for many African countries, the overriding priority is actually adaptation.

And out of that climate finance, which has reached about a hundred billion dollars, although the needs, uh, for climate action in the trillions of dollars, some of those climate finance schemes, which are, uh, available, are based on equity, based on loans and other type of financial instruments, which unfortunately don't fit the bill as far as African countries are concerned, because for us, the bulk of the financial actually be grants because you cannot impose climate change on me, I haven't created it, and then I have to get a loan for me to fix a problem which I have not created.

So this is the whole situation we find ourselves in. And like I said, African countries are willing to do more. Granted, there is affordable or zero cost finance, which is available, and also technology transfer and capacity building.

Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: On the, uh, issues of technology transfer and capacity building, you, you have explained the finance challenges on the, the finance front, and you have advocated for more grants and less loans for African countries simply because they were not causing this, uh, this, uh, this problem when it was happening, now they're suffering the consequences, but there's also a big burden on them.

I, I remember, you know, before the Ukraine war, there was a lot of this, uh, virtue signaling from, uh, countries from the Global North, uh, telling Senegal no to to access... Uh, they will not finance, uh, the natural gas re- reserves that they found. I think your country, the DRC, is another example of this way. We can discuss that a little bit and see where the DRC stands on the spectrum.

But then we saw Norway, um, Norway was producing more. I personally was shocked to see Norway. Norway is supposed to be the standard-bearer of climate, climate action in the positive way. Or the Germans coming back to the Africans and saying, "Oh, that project that we did not want to finance, we are ready to finance it now that, uh, Russia is trying to, to stop delivery of, uh, of, of natural gas," and so on. There's an issue of just morality that has gone wrong, uh, issues of not upholding principles, uh, which have been imposed on Africans.

But on the idea that you mentioned of grant, the loans itself, where is the discussion today? Are northern... Uh, the Global North countries accepting of that idea? And then to the ad- the reverse side of it is, um, capacity building. You talked about adaptation and capacity to do that.

Tosi Mpanu-Mpanu Yes. So many developed countries, uh, which like I said, have a obligation based on the convention to provide financial resources, because historically they've been, um, the ones creating the, the climate change that we, we live in.

Many countries unfortunately come to the table and say, "You know what? We are going through some hard fiscal times. There is a crisis. We'll not be able to, uh, provide, uh, the financial resources, uh, needed for this existential issue," which is climate change. Yet when COVID came, they were able to mobilize billions and trillions of dollars in order to fight COVID, which threatened their, their lives and their their future. So, so it seems like, um, when they're able to, uh, afford and be protected because of the development level against climate change, they're unwilling to provide the resources. Yet that same climate change is killing hundreds of thousands in Africa because there is, uh, water stress, there are diseases, there is, uh, food insecurity, there is, uh, security issues because some populations, because of water stress are venturing beyond where they were dwelling, and it creates conflict.

So in Africa today, you have conflict because of climate change, which Africa has not created. So all that creates a, a problem. And for me, there, there is a moral responsibility. There is an historical responsibility for developed countries, uh, to deliver. But today they tell us that the money is not there, uh, when money is being put on the table, they're putting so many requirements, which makes the money hard to, to reach, to be dispersed.

And also many developed countries now are trying to loop in the private sector. So they're doing some burden sharing in terms of their responsibility so that it can be passed onto the climate ch- uh, to the private sector, which comes with, um, schemes such as, uh, uh, insurance, uh, other type of risk reduction, loans, commercial credit or investment in renewable energy and so forth. But this burden shifting for us creates a morality issue because we believe that there is a climate debt that needs to be repaid. And developed countries have to do more than what they're actually doing right now.

Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: Are they willing to do more? I mean, they were, I think the last COP people talked about loss and damage, uh, as a concept. How, how well embraced is that concept within the circles of finance... Climate financing, particularly when you talk about this debt?

Tosi Mpanu-Mpanu: It was a hardly, uh, negotiated issue. Um, at COP28 in, in Dubai in 2023, there was the establishment of the Fund for responding to Loss and Damage, which was a, a major achievement, which was a success of, uh, the m- multilateral process on, on climate change. And that fund has now been, uh, operationalized and policies are being set, uh, by the board so that, uh, soon, uh, that fund can, uh, cater to the needs of, uh, vulnerable countries, especially small island developing states, least developed group of countries, African countries. So that fund needs to be, um, um, allocated needs to receive more resources so that it can be aligned with the needs of, uh, those developing countries.

So today, when you look at climate finance, there are different funds, which is a good thing because you have the Green Climate Fund, you have the Adaptation Fund, you have the Least Developed Countries Fund, you have the Funds for responding to Loss and Damage, you have some bilateral funds. Uh, you have also funds hosted by, uh, multilateral development banks, but still, it's not enough to respond to what's needed in order to tackle climate action.

And, and it's not, it's not about charity. It's about finding a solution so that we can keep the planet safe. Because climate change doesn't know any border, climate change, unfortunately you cannot have a virtuous climate policy at home and hope that you are going to put borders so that you're not affected by, uh, the actions of your neighbor. So we need concerted joint action.

And when you fund a project in a developing country, it creates overall ambitious action. You should not look at it as me, as a developed country, why am I going to send money to a developing country? Uh, because maybe that country will get a competitive edge when it comes to job creation. When it comes to, uh, economic output. No, you need to look at what is the carbon footprint of my investment, and if overall the planet is safer, then it's a worthwhile effort.

So we need to really look at how concerted action can be scaled up so that we can jointly resolve this climate issue, which, like we say in Africa, if the house of your neighbor in the village is burning and you not helping, uh, put out the fire, soon the fire will also affect your own house.

Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: Soon the fire will affect your house. One element that, um, we've not mentioned that is tied to some of the issue that you raise is the carbon credit deals, you know, carbon credits. I remember when you and I first, uh, kind of delve into this stuff a few years ago, it was all about the Kyoto Protocol and carbon credits and car- carbon sinks and so on.

Countries like Zambia and the UAE have engaged in carbon offset and credit agreement. What are the potential benefits or pitfalls of such deals for African nations? Do you consider this to be genuine solution as a way for developing nations to catch up, or is this a way for developed nations to evade exactly what you're asking?

Tosi Mpanu-Mpanu: I think it- it's an illustration of concerted action. So either you can, um, just provide financial resources so that the country can, um, undertake climate action.

Either you can look at the outcome of some climate action in some countries, and those outcomes which are going to be derived in carbon assets being generated, can then be sold to a country which has a higher cost of reducing emission at home. So at the end of the day, the planet sees reduction of emissions, even though there's been a little bit of a burden sharing. So what's important is that such schemes are voluntary, they're not being imposed on anyone. And the host country, which have to deliver the carbon assets to the other country, set its rules. They, they need to make sure that those projects which are going to be implemented, are making a good contribution to sustainable development in the host country, provide some type of technology transfer, creates some capacity building so that the overall, the host country is empowered, is capacitated and reduction has been achieved.

Of course, when it comes to principles, some people can object to that because they can say it is a way for rich country to, uh, outsource the reduction effort in another country. But like I said, those are voluntary schemes and, and I believe that some countries are endowed with resources such as forests have a hard time keeping those forests standing because of drivers of deforestation, which are often linked to poverty. So if there is a way to come up with a cooperative effort where resources are located from a developed country in order to reduce the deforestation and protect those forests and reduce poverty, at the end of the day, although the action is taking in the developing country, overall, the planet will see... Will profit and there will be money well spent.

The only problem at the end of the day that I see is that such schemes don't create too much of a burden on the developing country, and also to make sure that the cheapest reduction of emissions are not first going to the develop country, leaving the more onerous reduction of emissions to the host country. So technologies and, and, and methodologies are, are known, competent people in both countries are in place. So it is for a sovereign country to decide whether such a scheme is interesting for itself or not.

Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: In your case, you have served as a director at the Entreprise Générale, Entreprise Générale du Cobalt, the General Enterprise of Cobalt in Kolwezi, in DRC, in Katanga, which is one of the world center mining center in, uh, in, in, in, in, in Congo, but for the world. But your country is also not only it's, uh, you know, minerals.com of the world, mineralscenter.com of the world, everything is there that the world needs. So there we're talking about pollution. We're talking about many issues that are challenging for climate action.

But your country is also a home to one of the largest rainforests, which at one point I think the government had, uh, said they may open for oil exploration, which set of, uh, alarm bells all over the world. What is all that about? How do you reconcile the cobalt exploration and operations that... And copper and everything else that the Congo holds and the rainforest that the world depends on, if you were to open it for, uh, oil operations?

Tosi Mpanu-Mpanu: Yes, I think the DRC and uh, of course I'm gonna try to remain objective here because I'm talking about my own country, is the prime example of the issue of just transition. Because when you look at the DRC through each vast forest reserves, uh, tropical forests, which through phot- photosynthesis absorb greenhouse gases and send out oxygen, the, the DRC forest is one of the important lungs of, of the planet.

The DRC has also, uh, a lot of critical minerals, s- such as 70% of the gold... The, the world production of, of cobalt. Cobalt, which is used to decarbonize global economy through batteries and through other technological application. So, so the DRC cobalt, uh, when it becomes an end product, a final product is contributing to decarbonization of the, the planet. And when you also look at the renewable energy potential for the DRC, a lot of waterways, biomass, geothermal potential, even methane gas, gas in the, the, the, the lake Kivu. So, so the DRC can really be a solution for the climate change, uh, problem.

So the DRC is already making a big contribution to, uh, the global problem about climate change, but the DRC is not getting a fair compensation based on all the effort which is being done, and the DRC on top of those resources which are helping save the planet, the DRC has preserves of oil. Oil, which indeed people call it an energy of the past, but oil which can help reduce poverty in the DRC. The DRC is now receiving pressure so that it doesn't explore and exploit that oil because it's an energy of the past. But the people pointing the finger at the DRC not to touch the oil, themselves are investing in oil production and exploration. So it, it is a double standard, uh, which we believe, uh, create a situation of, uh, climate colonialism, which as a sovereign nation, we cannot accept.

So the DRC's government is not to s- the priority of the DRC government is not so much to save the planet, but it is to ensure that there is a social and economic development which reduce the poverty in which the average Congolese lives. And we need to pursue solutions that can contribute to such an aim.

If the climate investments which are being proposed to us will contribute at the objective of reducing, uh, poverty in the DRC, of course the government will pursue those. Uh, but if those climate policies which are being imposed to us creates an overburden for us trying to seek poverty reduction, then we cannot accept them.

So to make a long story short, the DRC government has a whole spectrum of options. And if you don't want us to explore oil, give us alternatives so that we can forego that oil exploration. Funds our climate action, fund our forest protection. But if the money's not coming in order for us to, uh, have ambitious climate action, or can you ask us not to explore, uh, the oil option. So it is an issue, uh, that at the end of the day is about national sovereignty, is about, uh, responsibility to its people, and which is about fairness because it doesn't make sense that some countries, and I will not name countries, we all know what... Who those countries are, invest heavily in oil exploration, in all production and ask the DRC not to follow suit.

Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: On that note, you're talking about, uh, fairness, sovereignty, and I think economic development, rising... Raising people out of poverty, we would like to thank you, Tosi Mpanu-Mpanu economist, climate change specialist and Africa climate negotiator and director at the Entreprise Générale du Cobalt, uh, for joining us today to shed some light on this issue of climate action. Thank you very much for joining us on Into Africa, Tosi Mpanu-Mpanu.

Tosi Mpanu-Mpanu: Thank you very much for having me, Mvemba.

Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: Thank you for listening. We want to have more conversations about Africa. Tell your friends, subscribe to our podcast at Apple Podcasts. You can also read our analysis and report at csis.org/africa. So long

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