Rethinking Humanitarian Aid: A Conversation with Michelle Nunn, President and CEO of CARE USA

Kathleen McInnis: Good morning. I’m Dr. Kathleen McInnis, the director of the Smart Women, Smart Power Initiative and a senior fellow in the International Security Program here at the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington, D.C.

I am delighted to be joined today by the amazing Michelle Nunn, who leads CARE USA, one of the world’s leading humanitarian relief organizations as their president and CEO. Michelle leads a global team of 7,000 people working in more than 100 countries to save lives, defeat poverty, and achieve social justice over at CARE USA. Michelle has led the organization through countless humanitarian crises, navigating most recently the COVID-19 pandemic, Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, and the horrific earthquakes in Turkey and Syria this past month. Michelle has built a career of service as a social entrepreneur and nonprofit CEO with all of her work centered in gender equality. This is going to be a great conversation. And I am looking forward to learning from such an inspiring leader.

But before we get started, I’d like to thank a moment to thank our supporters over at Citi. Because of their support, we’re able to bring you these conversations with changemakers from around the globe, who play a crucial role in foreign policy, national security, international business, and international development. So I’d like to pass it over to Jahaan Johnson over at Citi for some opening remarks. Jahaan.

Jahaan Johnson: Thanks so much, Kathleen. Citi has been supporting Smart Women, Smart Woman for over seven years to bring together women leaders in foreign policy, national security, and the business community to convene a dialogue on the most pressing issues facing the globe. We proudly call ourselves the leading global bank, as we serve clients in nearly 160 countries, including 95 where we have people on the ground. Our global footprint gives us a front-row view on the challenges and opportunities that exist in various political climates around the world.

So we are honored to be a part of a conversation with Michelle Nunn this morning. We have a longstanding relationship with CARE and are proud to contribute to their valuable work to those in need around the world. We’ve worked with CARE for years, partnering with them and other organizations on innovative solutions that amplify the reach, transparency, and impact of humanitarian assistance. Every day we have bankers working on mechanisms to help governments, multilateral institutions, and nonprofit organizations finance immediate and longstanding humanitarian issues, such as the impacts of conflicts and the pandemic.

Citi aims to be a force for good in the markets we serve, and our foundation has also helped during natural disaster crises, refugee settlement, and is now embarking upon its first-ever global innovation challenge, which will direct 25 million towards food security solutions. With a record number of people in need of humanitarian assistance and growing cost to address these crises, it will take a collective effort from business, government, multilaterals, humanitarian organizations such as CARE, and individuals to help minimize suffering around the world. We look forward to the conversation today, and thank you, CSIS and CARE, for raising this ever-important conversation.

Back to you, Kathleen.

Dr. McInnis: Thank you, Jahaan.

So, Michelle, let’s just get started. Here at Smart Women, Smart Power, we love to know people’s origin story. So I’d love to know, what drew you into the world of humanitarian aid and international affairs?

Michelle Nunn: Yeah. Well, I had a bit of a circuitous route to this place, as I think we all do in some sense. But, you know, I spent a good part of my career in the work of civic engagement and voluntarism in the U.S. and building an organization that ultimately merged with President George H.W. Bush’s Points of Light organization. But all along the way – I had, for instance, a fellowship with the Kellogg Foundation looking at social justice and faith traditions globally around the world, in which I studied that for three years. I actually started out thinking I would go in the Peace Corps.

So when the opportunity, after running for the U.S. Senate in Georgia – not quite my time in 2014 – when the opportunity to apply for and eventually to become the CEO of CARE – when that presented itself, it was such a combination of the things that I absolutely am passionate about. Which is, you know, our mission – save lives, defeat poverty. And we center women and girls. And, you know, as you mentioned, we have an enormous reach, a 75-plus year history and, you know, every year we’re reaching close to 200 million people. And so it is a real fulfillment of perhaps a long arc to be able to serve at this platform at this moment in time.

Dr. McInnis: The past three years have produced countless tragedies, from the COVID-19 pandemic, Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, the deadly earthquakes in Turkey and Syria, to the growing hunger crisis. One of the terms of art that’s being bandied around right now is polycrisis. How are you thinking about managing multiple humanitarian crises simultaneously?

Ms. Nunn: Yeah. Well, I think that this was – this was so clear to us at the – sort of at the moment in which COVID struck, in those early months, when, you know, CARE had 75-plus years of dealing with humanitarian disasters around the world. And yet, we had never seen, for instance, a global pandemic in which we were operating simultaneously in, you know, over 100 different countries that were all dealing with that crisis. And so I think unfortunately we’ve all had to find ways of a different kind of response and agility to multiple simultaneous crises at once. And, you know, if you just think about the last couple of years, you sort of think about this rolling set of – and they’re not sequential. So they’re overlapping humanitarian crises.

So, you know, again, right now we just marked the one-year anniversary of the invasion of Ukraine. Simultaneous to our work in Turkey and Syria, where we have this, you know, really unprecedented in the last almost 100 years earthquake. And then at the same time we have, for instance, a global hunger crisis that is – that is at a breaking point in 49 countries. So I think as actors in the humanitarian space, we’re all trying to meet the challenge of scale and agility that’s required for all of us.

And I think we’re also looking at how does this – how does our global community rise to this challenge in terms of resourcing these disasters and these challenges, and continue to make progress on the larger and longer-term development front, and, at the same, perhaps do we need changes in our overall system in order to – you know, to be able to better deal with what seems like the reality when you think about now also climate justice, climate change, climate crisis as an exasperating force in the coming years ahead? We have to be able to deal with this in different ways.

Dr. McInnis: Well, you mentioned resources and, you know, the short-term versus long term. And that raises the question of prioritization. How do you think about which efforts to prioritize or deprioritize as CARE organizes its humanitarian assistance in all of these different countries?

Ms. Nunn: Yeah. Well, it’s – I think that is an impossible and difficult challenge that we struggle with every single day. And the reality is that some crises are getting more support than others. I was just listening to an interview with our CARE country director in Yemen who was saying that the global community’s met only 23 percent of the required funding as articulated by the U.N. You know, other crises are getting – are closer to the full sort of benchmark that has been set, but the global community has some prioritizing to do.

And we need to make sure that it’s not just – that it’s not based upon just geopolitical concerns, that it’s taking into account the absolute, objective humanitarian realities that people are facing. We see a lot of crises that don’t get nearly as much attention, for instance, as the Ukrainian crisis. And so we need to – you know, we need to ensure that we’re using those systems that we have – the U.N.-based systems – to allocate in the way that is proportional to the needs around the world.

From a CARE perspective, we think about where can we make a differentiated and valuable contribution? How do we work in alignment with other actors to ensure, for instance, that the work that we’re doing is locally rooted and that we have a real capacity for the highest level of impact. And I will tell you that one thing we’re struggling with is I think when we came to CARE we were about 30 percent humanitarian and about 70 percent long-term development. We’re now closer to 60 percent humanitarian response. And that’s because of the enormity of the needs in the world, but it’s also because that’s where the resources are going.

So we have to – we can’t always be in reactive mode. We have to also look at not only how do we put out the fires, but how do we ensure that there are not new fires that are starting that we – that we need to be ensuring that we are, you know, tending to, to the work of our long-term development for resiliency, for communities, as we move forward in the world.

Dr. McInnis: So that begs another question. So we’ve got – you know, with the Ukraine crisis, what’s happening in Turkey and Syria – what are the other flashpoints or hot spots that you think we, as a global community, should be paying more attention to?

Ms. Nunn: Yeah. Well, I mean, if you just think about what has fallen out of the headlines, Afghanistan’s an example, right? We had a lot of headlines around Afghanistan in the wake of the Taliban takeover, but Afghanistan is one of the largest humanitarian disasters in the world right now. Yemen is another example. You know, if you think about – how often do we read about Sudan or South Sudan? And, you know, not nearly as often. You know, there’s been – there was a conflict in Ethiopia that’s been going on for some time. And more people died in that conflict than in Ukraine to date, but we see very little attention to that.

So some of it is how do we balance out what we receive from the news media, for instance, and how do we have more of a true global perspective about those needs? And then I think we need to also, as you say, look to where are the next – where’s the next horizon of crisis? So often issues of water and issues of hunger are precipitators of conflict and of broader humanitarian crisis. So if you – again, the Horn of Africa, southern Africa. We’re looking at the Sahel now, which is becoming increasingly – we’re seeing increasing incidents of terrorism and also conflict. And a lot of that is driven by issues, again, of hunger, of water scarcity.

So how do we get ahead of that? And, you know, as our VP of humanitarian affairs was saying the other day, you know, there’s a technical definition, for instance, of famine. But we’re seeing that the last declaration of famine in Somalia, there are already more people that have died in Somalia than in that famine to date, and yet we haven’t yet declared that a famine. So again, how do we draw attention to these enormous crises? And how do we galvanize people’s attention and not come up against a kind of compassion fatigue, which I think we also are noting?

Dr. McInnis: It’s so fascinating that, I mean, I guess from a policy dork’s perspective, you know, definitions matter, right, in terms of galvanizing responses. And so that’s critically important. But turning back to the crisis that is dominating the headlines right now, it’s been one year since Russia invaded Ukraine. And over the past year, Care has helped nearly one million Ukrainians with direct aid and economic and social support. What do you see are the emerging needs now? And as the war grinds on, what kinds of humanitarian relief should the global community be thinking about for the near future?

Ms. Nunn: Yeah. Well, I think there’s a number of buckets. And we talked about these simultaneous needs that are happening. And that’s a crisis where there are different kinds of responses that are needed based upon both sequencing and geography. So there are a number of places in Ukraine which need the most immediate kind of assistance. So that is, you know, protective shelter, water, hygiene products. Those places where they are, for instance, under fire, for instance.

There’s another group that are internally displaced. So millions of people in Ukraine that are moving back and forth into zones of safety but, for instance, living in shelters. And a lot of them, for instance, not gender-separated, not always protected. So we need to make sure that we’re supporting those who are not – who are no longer in the safety of their own homes, and that are often vulnerable. So especially, you know, if you think about elders, seniors, those who are disabled.

And then you have another category of those people who have left Ukraine and are trying to rebuild their lives – largely women and children and the elderly, so about 90 percent – and they’re still living in – you know, they’re living in places like Poland. So how are we supporting the sort of infrastructure in Poland to continue to enable, you know, a million-plus citizens to kind of be integrated from a school perspective, from a social security perspective, from a medical perspective? So that’s another bucket.

And then on the – on the sort of horizon is this enormous task of rebuilding Ukraine which, you know, the price tag is, you know, $150-plus billion. And how are we going to galvanize, again, the global community to stand with Ukraine in this immediate moment, and then also thinking about the longer term?

Dr. McInnis: What lessons have you learned or what best practices have you taken on in collaborating with local efforts on the ground in Ukraine? How does an international aid organization like CARE add value, rather than, you know, overwhelm local institutions and just – like, just – the term of art, I think, is absorptive capacity. And just making sure that the local community can actually absorb and utilize support?

Ms. Nunn: Yeah. Well, and there are a lot of lessons in Ukraine, because it has demanded a different kind of response, and one that is really largely dependent upon and driven by local actors. And so, for instance, you know, CARE has a presence in many places around the world. The Philippines, for example. It’s a place that has a lot of natural disasters. We already have a network of organizations that we work with, we’re prepared for.

Ukraine is not some place that had infrastructure for humanitarian response, per se. So there has been a – you know, all of the organizations that I know of, whether it’s Save the Children, or World Vision, or CARE, have worked with and created an alliance of local nonprofit partners, civil society organizations – some of whom may not have been humanitarian actors, but have transitioned and transformed. And that we’ve helped equip them.

So, you know, one example, when I was in Poland and there were tens of thousands of people still streaming through, I went to visit a – what was it called – the Ukrainian House. It was a cultural center where they had weddings, and plays, and they celebrated the Ukrainian culture. From the day one of the invasion, they had completely transformed themselves into a comprehensive shelter for Ukrainian refugees. So imagine, like, literally where the shelter was where the stage once was of this cultural center. So CARE, for instance, had worked with that organization, helped equip them to become humanitarian responders around cash assistance and a whole bunch of other training and support, and resources.

And so we also work with something called the Polish Center for International Aid. They had done most of their work outside of Poland. They were in Kenya, and in other places around the world. And they brought and started to work in their own home country. And we partnered with them to help support them to do the work of, for instance, employing Ukrainian refugee teachers to work in the Polish school system. So a lot of innovation but, I will say, a huge credit to the Ukrainian people and to the people of the surrounding countries around Ukraine, who have lifted up their organizations. A lot of women-centered and women-led organizations that have become actors in this crisis. And CARE and others have helped support them, equip them, and network them together.

Dr. McInnis: Many humanitarian relief efforts occur in fragile or conflict-affected areas, where the military – and sometimes the U.S. military – is quite active. How does CARE manage its relationships with these defense institutions? And I guess the follow on would be, what do you wish U.S. or international militaries better understood about humanitarian relief in these conflict-affected areas?

Ms. Nunn: Yeah. It’s a really kind of a tricky, complex question, because, as you know, as humanitarian actors we have to be neutral. And so we have to be able to work with all parties of a – for instance, a conflict. And that neutrality I think sometimes also has precluded a kind of – at least, a conversation that I think could happen between humanitarian and military actors for better kind of – and more seamless engagement and understanding of our various different goals. So from a humanitarian and military perspective, I think there is an upside opportunity, I would say, to enabling humanitarian organizations to continue that neutrality, but still to better advocate for the kinds of collaborative actions that we would want to see from the U.S. military, or any military, frankly, that’s a player within a conflict.

And, you know, one of the first things is obviously the access – humanitarian access is one of the key issues in any kind of a conflict situation. So having the kind of support and capacity for the U.S. military or any military to ensure that humanitarian actors have safe access for the distribution of humanitarian supplies. I think we have done that at various different levels, but there’s still probably an upside opportunity for that conversation. Obviously, we invoke the observance of international law with all military actors, and ensuring that we are – that everyone is observing that basic baseline for, for instance, the treatment of civilians and the protection of civilians.

So I think the sort of short answer is I think there’s a lot more conversation that could be had around ensuring that especially in long-term fragile states and conflicts, that there is the most productive kind of relationship possible, and a shared understanding of our various different imperatives for a more effective protection of citizenry.

Dr. McInnis: Turning to Turkey and Syria, it’s been estimated that over 45,000 people were killed, and with millions in distress. What is CARE’s role on the ground in that crisis? And how are you prioritizing your efforts? How are you thinking about that kind of relief?

Ms. Nunn: So, CARE has already been a long-term player in Turkey and northwest Syria, where the earthquake hit. In fact, we have over 350 staff people. And in fact, two of them lost their lives in the earthquake. And so we see a situation in which our colleagues are not only responding to a humanitarian disaster but also, you know, trying to take care of their own families, suffering and grieving their own losses. And so I’ve been astounded at the, you know, alacrity and amazing agility that they’ve had to respond.

And it is included, you know, first things first, around, you know, basic shelter, hygiene items, water. Those were – that was sort of the mandate sort of in those early first few days. It will continue to turn now to psychosocial support, to long-term capacity for helping people rebuild their lives. I will just highlight that northwest Syria has had an unimaginable set of challenges over the last plus-10 years. So, you know, we have been – we had already sort of impacted and been working with over 1.6 million people in northwest Syria before the earthquake hit. And it was already at a level of high degree of humanitarian need. And that’s hunger, needs for shelter.

We have people who have been in tents for over 10 years, if you can imagine that, in cold, in heat. They’ve had COVID, and cholera, and just an enormous set of challenges. And on top of that now, they’re facing an earthquake, and much less access for humanitarian relief in terms of just getting supplies to them. And also much less resourcing, frankly, in terms of getting them the support that they need. So that’s one of the real priorities for us going forward.

Dr. McInnis: Of course, my condolences for your colleagues. These are, of course, not easy issues to witness or work on day in and day out. How are you – is CARE thinking about mental health across your community of volunteers and your workforce? And how are you thinking about it in terms of interacting with local partners?

Ms. Nunn: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think about all the time our colleagues that are on the frontlines of conflict and natural disaster and, every day, are dealing with these issues. And, you know, I frankly think that we all need to figure out how to do more for our humanitarian colleagues from a psychosocial support. CARE does prioritize that in our programing as it relates to our participants. So, you know, CARE often, for instance, is leading the psychosocial support sector within a comprehensive kind of response in either a refugee situation or a natural disaster.

So and I – so I think that we need to continue to ensure that that gets prioritized. Sometimes we can lose sight of that. Of course, we need to get food, water, shelter. But you can imagine that if you’ve lost everything, if you perhaps are suffering post-traumatic stress, we need to have counselors and the kind of counsel and support. So I think that that’s sort of something that needs to be centered at a broad level in terms of resourcing for sort of the global humanitarian community. And I think it’s something that we’re still not doing sufficiently, I will say, you know, in CARE and I think across the board.

Dr. McInnis: So to turn to one of the longer-term issues that’s going to be with us for quite some time, I think, the COVID-19 pandemic, which we’ve sort of talked a little bit about today, where were you when you first realized that this new virus wasn’t going to be something like we’d seen before and was going to require a different kind of response from CARE?

Ms. Nunn: Yeah. Well, it’s interesting, because I think it was March, right, and three years ago that we were facing into this crisis. And, coincidentally, we were a week away from taking our board on a trip to Ghana. And I’m actually going on that same trip a year later – I mean, so three years later. I’m leaving this week to go back and try to actually get that trip done. But, you know, I think all of us were looking at something that was unprecedented in our lifetime, that we were unsure about its scale, and scope, and its impact.

I think it was scary, if we can all remember back, how it sort of – how we began to absorb what the impacts of this would be, or those of us who had kids in school realizing, like, school is going to close, but for how long? I think none of us could have imagined at that point it could be a year and a half or two years before schools totally opened up again. It was – it was just hard to wrap your mind around. And I think for CARE, as a humanitarian organization, we were also trying to determine how to lean into the crisis, but also how to, for instance, protect our own – the safety of our own staff people.

And I think we faced this inflection point around – and also, I think we were all uncertain about the economic impacts. Do we retrench or do we lean in and go forward? And I think that I’m really proud that CARE’s team was able to galvanize. And we reached our highest impact numbers over the last couple of years that we’ve had in our entire history. And I think, you know, it was a moment that called for, you know, literally, CARE as an organization, but care of one another, and an understanding of our interdependence and solidarity. So it was definitely a moment that was timely and critical for, I think, the organization’s history and our actions.

Dr. McInnis: How, in your view, have women and the role of women in societies changed for better or for worse as a result of the pandemic?

Ms. Nunn: Well, I think, you know, if you looked at the numbers in the immediate aftermath – I mean, what happens when you have a crisis is that those who are already marginalized or vulnerable are impacted at the highest level, the worst. And so that’s what happened with women around the world. And, you know, we did surveys in which we were able to tell within the first weeks and months that what women around the world, especially those that were already living in poverty, were saying was this was – their biggest concern was issues of hunger, the loss of livelihood, and psychosocial support. They were locked in their own homes, for instance. Some of them were having the impacts of gender-based violence tremendously exacerbated.

So we were able to say: This is what’s the reality for women and girls. And we need to be able to respond to that. But I think it has definitely been a force – you know, a sort of regressive force for women and, you know, I think for all of us. We’ve seen poverty levels go up. We’ve seen some of our gender inequities – our goals have become harder to reach. But I think we have an opportunity to – and we need to have an – and we have an obligation to see how can we accelerate and get back on track in terms of the progress that we seek.

Dr. McInnis: So as we wrap up today, we are Smart Women and Smart Power. I’m wondering the extent to which – or, if you can share your views on the extent to which you feel that being a woman has impacted your decisions or the approaches you’ve taken to some of the key decisions that you’ve made. Do you think that being a woman allows you to bring something different to the table? And if so, why? And if not, why not?

Ms. Nunn: Yeah. Well, absolutely. And I think my identity as a woman is – you know, is fundamental in shaping my perspective and my orientation to challenges. When you think about the COVID crisis as an example, I think women immediately understood, for instance, what this was going to mean in terms of education and for their children, because they were experiencing it directly. I think women also – we also understood that 70 percent of the frontline health care workers that were going to deliver care and/or vaccinations were women.

And so, you know, I think being a woman leading a major organization that was centered on women and girls, and having the experience and voices of women and girls that were informing our capacity to make decisions, completely shaped our response and how we moved forward into that – into that particular crisis. But I think fundamentally, I think the real understanding of our interdependence, at a gut level, is I think profoundly held by women. And I think that that is a value that CARE embodies, and that I hope that from a leadership perspective that we lean into.

Dr. McInnis: Well, Michelle, this has been an absolutely fascinating conversation. Thank you so much for taking the time to join us this morning and show us how CARE is rethinking humanitarian aid, and what it’s going to mean for the global community. So, again, thank you so much.

Ms. Nunn: Thanks for the opportunity.

Dr. McInnis: Yeah, absolutely.

For our online audience, there’s plenty of content on all the issues that are affecting our nation and our world today on the CSIS website. Stick around, poke around. And have a wonderful day.

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Kathleen McInnis: Good morning. I’m Dr. Kathleen McInnis, the director of the Smart Women, Smart Power Initiative and a senior fellow in the International Security Program here at the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington, D.C.

I am delighted to be joined today by the amazing Michelle Nunn, who leads CARE USA, one of the world’s leading humanitarian relief organizations as their president and CEO. Michelle leads a global team of 7,000 people working in more than 100 countries to save lives, defeat poverty, and achieve social justice over at CARE USA. Michelle has led the organization through countless humanitarian crises, navigating most recently the COVID-19 pandemic, Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, and the horrific earthquakes in Turkey and Syria this past month. Michelle has built a career of service as a social entrepreneur and nonprofit CEO with all of her work centered in gender equality. This is going to be a great conversation. And I am looking forward to learning from such an inspiring leader.

But before we get started, I’d like to thank a moment to thank our supporters over at Citi. Because of their support, we’re able to bring you these conversations with changemakers from around the globe, who play a crucial role in foreign policy, national security, international business, and international development. So I’d like to pass it over to Jahaan Johnson over at Citi for some opening remarks. Jahaan.

Jahaan Johnson: Thanks so much, Kathleen. Citi has been supporting Smart Women, Smart Woman for over seven years to bring together women leaders in foreign policy, national security, and the business community to convene a dialogue on the most pressing issues facing the globe. We proudly call ourselves the leading global bank, as we serve clients in nearly 160 countries, including 95 where we have people on the ground. Our global footprint gives us a front-row view on the challenges and opportunities that exist in various political climates around the world.

So we are honored to be a part of a conversation with Michelle Nunn this morning. We have a longstanding relationship with CARE and are proud to contribute to their valuable work to those in need around the world. We’ve worked with CARE for years, partnering with them and other organizations on innovative solutions that amplify the reach, transparency, and impact of humanitarian assistance. Every day we have bankers working on mechanisms to help governments, multilateral institutions, and nonprofit organizations finance immediate and longstanding humanitarian issues, such as the impacts of conflicts and the pandemic.

Citi aims to be a force for good in the markets we serve, and our foundation has also helped during natural disaster crises, refugee settlement, and is now embarking upon its first-ever global innovation challenge, which will direct 25 million towards food security solutions. With a record number of people in need of humanitarian assistance and growing cost to address these crises, it will take a collective effort from business, government, multilaterals, humanitarian organizations such as CARE, and individuals to help minimize suffering around the world. We look forward to the conversation today, and thank you, CSIS and CARE, for raising this ever-important conversation.

Back to you, Kathleen.

Dr. McInnis: Thank you, Jahaan.

So, Michelle, let’s just get started. Here at Smart Women, Smart Power, we love to know people’s origin story. So I’d love to know, what drew you into the world of humanitarian aid and international affairs?

Michelle Nunn: Yeah. Well, I had a bit of a circuitous route to this place, as I think we all do in some sense. But, you know, I spent a good part of my career in the work of civic engagement and voluntarism in the U.S. and building an organization that ultimately merged with President George H.W. Bush’s Points of Light organization. But all along the way – I had, for instance, a fellowship with the Kellogg Foundation looking at social justice and faith traditions globally around the world, in which I studied that for three years. I actually started out thinking I would go in the Peace Corps.

So when the opportunity, after running for the U.S. Senate in Georgia – not quite my time in 2014 – when the opportunity to apply for and eventually to become the CEO of CARE – when that presented itself, it was such a combination of the things that I absolutely am passionate about. Which is, you know, our mission – save lives, defeat poverty. And we center women and girls. And, you know, as you mentioned, we have an enormous reach, a 75-plus year history and, you know, every year we’re reaching close to 200 million people. And so it is a real fulfillment of perhaps a long arc to be able to serve at this platform at this moment in time.

Dr. McInnis: The past three years have produced countless tragedies, from the COVID-19 pandemic, Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, the deadly earthquakes in Turkey and Syria, to the growing hunger crisis. One of the terms of art that’s being bandied around right now is polycrisis. How are you thinking about managing multiple humanitarian crises simultaneously?

Ms. Nunn: Yeah. Well, I think that this was – this was so clear to us at the – sort of at the moment in which COVID struck, in those early months, when, you know, CARE had 75-plus years of dealing with humanitarian disasters around the world. And yet, we had never seen, for instance, a global pandemic in which we were operating simultaneously in, you know, over 100 different countries that were all dealing with that crisis. And so I think unfortunately we’ve all had to find ways of a different kind of response and agility to multiple simultaneous crises at once. And, you know, if you just think about the last couple of years, you sort of think about this rolling set of – and they’re not sequential. So they’re overlapping humanitarian crises.

So, you know, again, right now we just marked the one-year anniversary of the invasion of Ukraine. Simultaneous to our work in Turkey and Syria, where we have this, you know, really unprecedented in the last almost 100 years earthquake. And then at the same time we have, for instance, a global hunger crisis that is – that is at a breaking point in 49 countries. So I think as actors in the humanitarian space, we’re all trying to meet the challenge of scale and agility that’s required for all of us.

And I think we’re also looking at how does this – how does our global community rise to this challenge in terms of resourcing these disasters and these challenges, and continue to make progress on the larger and longer-term development front, and, at the same, perhaps do we need changes in our overall system in order to – you know, to be able to better deal with what seems like the reality when you think about now also climate justice, climate change, climate crisis as an exasperating force in the coming years ahead? We have to be able to deal with this in different ways.

Dr. McInnis: Well, you mentioned resources and, you know, the short-term versus long term. And that raises the question of prioritization. How do you think about which efforts to prioritize or deprioritize as CARE organizes its humanitarian assistance in all of these different countries?

Ms. Nunn: Yeah. Well, it’s – I think that is an impossible and difficult challenge that we struggle with every single day. And the reality is that some crises are getting more support than others. I was just listening to an interview with our CARE country director in Yemen who was saying that the global community’s met only 23 percent of the required funding as articulated by the U.N. You know, other crises are getting – are closer to the full sort of benchmark that has been set, but the global community has some prioritizing to do.

And we need to make sure that it’s not just – that it’s not based upon just geopolitical concerns, that it’s taking into account the absolute, objective humanitarian realities that people are facing. We see a lot of crises that don’t get nearly as much attention, for instance, as the Ukrainian crisis. And so we need to – you know, we need to ensure that we’re using those systems that we have – the U.N.-based systems – to allocate in the way that is proportional to the needs around the world.

From a CARE perspective, we think about where can we make a differentiated and valuable contribution? How do we work in alignment with other actors to ensure, for instance, that the work that we’re doing is locally rooted and that we have a real capacity for the highest level of impact. And I will tell you that one thing we’re struggling with is I think when we came to CARE we were about 30 percent humanitarian and about 70 percent long-term development. We’re now closer to 60 percent humanitarian response. And that’s because of the enormity of the needs in the world, but it’s also because that’s where the resources are going.

So we have to – we can’t always be in reactive mode. We have to also look at not only how do we put out the fires, but how do we ensure that there are not new fires that are starting that we – that we need to be ensuring that we are, you know, tending to, to the work of our long-term development for resiliency, for communities, as we move forward in the world.

Dr. McInnis: So that begs another question. So we’ve got – you know, with the Ukraine crisis, what’s happening in Turkey and Syria – what are the other flashpoints or hot spots that you think we, as a global community, should be paying more attention to?

Ms. Nunn: Yeah. Well, I mean, if you just think about what has fallen out of the headlines, Afghanistan’s an example, right? We had a lot of headlines around Afghanistan in the wake of the Taliban takeover, but Afghanistan is one of the largest humanitarian disasters in the world right now. Yemen is another example. You know, if you think about – how often do we read about Sudan or South Sudan? And, you know, not nearly as often. You know, there’s been – there was a conflict in Ethiopia that’s been going on for some time. And more people died in that conflict than in Ukraine to date, but we see very little attention to that.

So some of it is how do we balance out what we receive from the news media, for instance, and how do we have more of a true global perspective about those needs? And then I think we need to also, as you say, look to where are the next – where’s the next horizon of crisis? So often issues of water and issues of hunger are precipitators of conflict and of broader humanitarian crisis. So if you – again, the Horn of Africa, southern Africa. We’re looking at the Sahel now, which is becoming increasingly – we’re seeing increasing incidents of terrorism and also conflict. And a lot of that is driven by issues, again, of hunger, of water scarcity.

So how do we get ahead of that? And, you know, as our VP of humanitarian affairs was saying the other day, you know, there’s a technical definition, for instance, of famine. But we’re seeing that the last declaration of famine in Somalia, there are already more people that have died in Somalia than in that famine to date, and yet we haven’t yet declared that a famine. So again, how do we draw attention to these enormous crises? And how do we galvanize people’s attention and not come up against a kind of compassion fatigue, which I think we also are noting?

Dr. McInnis: It’s so fascinating that, I mean, I guess from a policy dork’s perspective, you know, definitions matter, right, in terms of galvanizing responses. And so that’s critically important. But turning back to the crisis that is dominating the headlines right now, it’s been one year since Russia invaded Ukraine. And over the past year, Care has helped nearly one million Ukrainians with direct aid and economic and social support. What do you see are the emerging needs now? And as the war grinds on, what kinds of humanitarian relief should the global community be thinking about for the near future?

Ms. Nunn: Yeah. Well, I think there’s a number of buckets. And we talked about these simultaneous needs that are happening. And that’s a crisis where there are different kinds of responses that are needed based upon both sequencing and geography. So there are a number of places in Ukraine which need the most immediate kind of assistance. So that is, you know, protective shelter, water, hygiene products. Those places where they are, for instance, under fire, for instance.

There’s another group that are internally displaced. So millions of people in Ukraine that are moving back and forth into zones of safety but, for instance, living in shelters. And a lot of them, for instance, not gender-separated, not always protected. So we need to make sure that we’re supporting those who are not – who are no longer in the safety of their own homes, and that are often vulnerable. So especially, you know, if you think about elders, seniors, those who are disabled.

And then you have another category of those people who have left Ukraine and are trying to rebuild their lives – largely women and children and the elderly, so about 90 percent – and they’re still living in – you know, they’re living in places like Poland. So how are we supporting the sort of infrastructure in Poland to continue to enable, you know, a million-plus citizens to kind of be integrated from a school perspective, from a social security perspective, from a medical perspective? So that’s another bucket.

And then on the – on the sort of horizon is this enormous task of rebuilding Ukraine which, you know, the price tag is, you know, $150-plus billion. And how are we going to galvanize, again, the global community to stand with Ukraine in this immediate moment, and then also thinking about the longer term?

Dr. McInnis: What lessons have you learned or what best practices have you taken on in collaborating with local efforts on the ground in Ukraine? How does an international aid organization like CARE add value, rather than, you know, overwhelm local institutions and just – like, just – the term of art, I think, is absorptive capacity. And just making sure that the local community can actually absorb and utilize support?

Ms. Nunn: Yeah. Well, and there are a lot of lessons in Ukraine, because it has demanded a different kind of response, and one that is really largely dependent upon and driven by local actors. And so, for instance, you know, CARE has a presence in many places around the world. The Philippines, for example. It’s a place that has a lot of natural disasters. We already have a network of organizations that we work with, we’re prepared for.

Ukraine is not some place that had infrastructure for humanitarian response, per se. So there has been a – you know, all of the organizations that I know of, whether it’s Save the Children, or World Vision, or CARE, have worked with and created an alliance of local nonprofit partners, civil society organizations – some of whom may not have been humanitarian actors, but have transitioned and transformed. And that we’ve helped equip them.

So, you know, one example, when I was in Poland and there were tens of thousands of people still streaming through, I went to visit a – what was it called – the Ukrainian House. It was a cultural center where they had weddings, and plays, and they celebrated the Ukrainian culture. From the day one of the invasion, they had completely transformed themselves into a comprehensive shelter for Ukrainian refugees. So imagine, like, literally where the shelter was where the stage once was of this cultural center. So CARE, for instance, had worked with that organization, helped equip them to become humanitarian responders around cash assistance and a whole bunch of other training and support, and resources.

And so we also work with something called the Polish Center for International Aid. They had done most of their work outside of Poland. They were in Kenya, and in other places around the world. And they brought and started to work in their own home country. And we partnered with them to help support them to do the work of, for instance, employing Ukrainian refugee teachers to work in the Polish school system. So a lot of innovation but, I will say, a huge credit to the Ukrainian people and to the people of the surrounding countries around Ukraine, who have lifted up their organizations. A lot of women-centered and women-led organizations that have become actors in this crisis. And CARE and others have helped support them, equip them, and network them together.

Dr. McInnis: Many humanitarian relief efforts occur in fragile or conflict-affected areas, where the military – and sometimes the U.S. military – is quite active. How does CARE manage its relationships with these defense institutions? And I guess the follow on would be, what do you wish U.S. or international militaries better understood about humanitarian relief in these conflict-affected areas?

Ms. Nunn: Yeah. It’s a really kind of a tricky, complex question, because, as you know, as humanitarian actors we have to be neutral. And so we have to be able to work with all parties of a – for instance, a conflict. And that neutrality I think sometimes also has precluded a kind of – at least, a conversation that I think could happen between humanitarian and military actors for better kind of – and more seamless engagement and understanding of our various different goals. So from a humanitarian and military perspective, I think there is an upside opportunity, I would say, to enabling humanitarian organizations to continue that neutrality, but still to better advocate for the kinds of collaborative actions that we would want to see from the U.S. military, or any military, frankly, that’s a player within a conflict.

And, you know, one of the first things is obviously the access – humanitarian access is one of the key issues in any kind of a conflict situation. So having the kind of support and capacity for the U.S. military or any military to ensure that humanitarian actors have safe access for the distribution of humanitarian supplies. I think we have done that at various different levels, but there’s still probably an upside opportunity for that conversation. Obviously, we invoke the observance of international law with all military actors, and ensuring that we are – that everyone is observing that basic baseline for, for instance, the treatment of civilians and the protection of civilians.

So I think the sort of short answer is I think there’s a lot more conversation that could be had around ensuring that especially in long-term fragile states and conflicts, that there is the most productive kind of relationship possible, and a shared understanding of our various different imperatives for a more effective protection of citizenry.

Dr. McInnis: Turning to Turkey and Syria, it’s been estimated that over 45,000 people were killed, and with millions in distress. What is CARE’s role on the ground in that crisis? And how are you prioritizing your efforts? How are you thinking about that kind of relief?

Ms. Nunn: So, CARE has already been a long-term player in Turkey and northwest Syria, where the earthquake hit. In fact, we have over 350 staff people. And in fact, two of them lost their lives in the earthquake. And so we see a situation in which our colleagues are not only responding to a humanitarian disaster but also, you know, trying to take care of their own families, suffering and grieving their own losses. And so I’ve been astounded at the, you know, alacrity and amazing agility that they’ve had to respond.

And it is included, you know, first things first, around, you know, basic shelter, hygiene items, water. Those were – that was sort of the mandate sort of in those early first few days. It will continue to turn now to psychosocial support, to long-term capacity for helping people rebuild their lives. I will just highlight that northwest Syria has had an unimaginable set of challenges over the last plus-10 years. So, you know, we have been – we had already sort of impacted and been working with over 1.6 million people in northwest Syria before the earthquake hit. And it was already at a level of high degree of humanitarian need. And that’s hunger, needs for shelter.

We have people who have been in tents for over 10 years, if you can imagine that, in cold, in heat. They’ve had COVID, and cholera, and just an enormous set of challenges. And on top of that now, they’re facing an earthquake, and much less access for humanitarian relief in terms of just getting supplies to them. And also much less resourcing, frankly, in terms of getting them the support that they need. So that’s one of the real priorities for us going forward.

Dr. McInnis: Of course, my condolences for your colleagues. These are, of course, not easy issues to witness or work on day in and day out. How are you – is CARE thinking about mental health across your community of volunteers and your workforce? And how are you thinking about it in terms of interacting with local partners?

Ms. Nunn: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think about all the time our colleagues that are on the frontlines of conflict and natural disaster and, every day, are dealing with these issues. And, you know, I frankly think that we all need to figure out how to do more for our humanitarian colleagues from a psychosocial support. CARE does prioritize that in our programing as it relates to our participants. So, you know, CARE often, for instance, is leading the psychosocial support sector within a comprehensive kind of response in either a refugee situation or a natural disaster.

So and I – so I think that we need to continue to ensure that that gets prioritized. Sometimes we can lose sight of that. Of course, we need to get food, water, shelter. But you can imagine that if you’ve lost everything, if you perhaps are suffering post-traumatic stress, we need to have counselors and the kind of counsel and support. So I think that that’s sort of something that needs to be centered at a broad level in terms of resourcing for sort of the global humanitarian community. And I think it’s something that we’re still not doing sufficiently, I will say, you know, in CARE and I think across the board.

Dr. McInnis: So to turn to one of the longer-term issues that’s going to be with us for quite some time, I think, the COVID-19 pandemic, which we’ve sort of talked a little bit about today, where were you when you first realized that this new virus wasn’t going to be something like we’d seen before and was going to require a different kind of response from CARE?

Ms. Nunn: Yeah. Well, it’s interesting, because I think it was March, right, and three years ago that we were facing into this crisis. And, coincidentally, we were a week away from taking our board on a trip to Ghana. And I’m actually going on that same trip a year later – I mean, so three years later. I’m leaving this week to go back and try to actually get that trip done. But, you know, I think all of us were looking at something that was unprecedented in our lifetime, that we were unsure about its scale, and scope, and its impact.

I think it was scary, if we can all remember back, how it sort of – how we began to absorb what the impacts of this would be, or those of us who had kids in school realizing, like, school is going to close, but for how long? I think none of us could have imagined at that point it could be a year and a half or two years before schools totally opened up again. It was – it was just hard to wrap your mind around. And I think for CARE, as a humanitarian organization, we were also trying to determine how to lean into the crisis, but also how to, for instance, protect our own – the safety of our own staff people.

And I think we faced this inflection point around – and also, I think we were all uncertain about the economic impacts. Do we retrench or do we lean in and go forward? And I think that I’m really proud that CARE’s team was able to galvanize. And we reached our highest impact numbers over the last couple of years that we’ve had in our entire history. And I think, you know, it was a moment that called for, you know, literally, CARE as an organization, but care of one another, and an understanding of our interdependence and solidarity. So it was definitely a moment that was timely and critical for, I think, the organization’s history and our actions.

Dr. McInnis: How, in your view, have women and the role of women in societies changed for better or for worse as a result of the pandemic?

Ms. Nunn: Well, I think, you know, if you looked at the numbers in the immediate aftermath – I mean, what happens when you have a crisis is that those who are already marginalized or vulnerable are impacted at the highest level, the worst. And so that’s what happened with women around the world. And, you know, we did surveys in which we were able to tell within the first weeks and months that what women around the world, especially those that were already living in poverty, were saying was this was – their biggest concern was issues of hunger, the loss of livelihood, and psychosocial support. They were locked in their own homes, for instance. Some of them were having the impacts of gender-based violence tremendously exacerbated.

So we were able to say: This is what’s the reality for women and girls. And we need to be able to respond to that. But I think it has definitely been a force – you know, a sort of regressive force for women and, you know, I think for all of us. We’ve seen poverty levels go up. We’ve seen some of our gender inequities – our goals have become harder to reach. But I think we have an opportunity to – and we need to have an – and we have an obligation to see how can we accelerate and get back on track in terms of the progress that we seek.

Dr. McInnis: So as we wrap up today, we are Smart Women and Smart Power. I’m wondering the extent to which – or, if you can share your views on the extent to which you feel that being a woman has impacted your decisions or the approaches you’ve taken to some of the key decisions that you’ve made. Do you think that being a woman allows you to bring something different to the table? And if so, why? And if not, why not?

Ms. Nunn: Yeah. Well, absolutely. And I think my identity as a woman is – you know, is fundamental in shaping my perspective and my orientation to challenges. When you think about the COVID crisis as an example, I think women immediately understood, for instance, what this was going to mean in terms of education and for their children, because they were experiencing it directly. I think women also – we also understood that 70 percent of the frontline health care workers that were going to deliver care and/or vaccinations were women.

And so, you know, I think being a woman leading a major organization that was centered on women and girls, and having the experience and voices of women and girls that were informing our capacity to make decisions, completely shaped our response and how we moved forward into that – into that particular crisis. But I think fundamentally, I think the real understanding of our interdependence, at a gut level, is I think profoundly held by women. And I think that that is a value that CARE embodies, and that I hope that from a leadership perspective that we lean into.

Dr. McInnis: Well, Michelle, this has been an absolutely fascinating conversation. Thank you so much for taking the time to join us this morning and show us how CARE is rethinking humanitarian aid, and what it’s going to mean for the global community. So, again, thank you so much.

Ms. Nunn: Thanks for the opportunity.

Dr. McInnis: Yeah, absolutely.

For our online audience, there’s plenty of content on all the issues that are affecting our nation and our world today on the CSIS website. Stick around, poke around. And have a wonderful day.

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