This transcript is from a CSIS podcast published on September 19th. Listen to the podcast here.
Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: Welcome to Into Africa. My name is Mvemba Phezo Dizolele. I'm a senior fellow and the director of the Africa program at the Center for Strategic and International Studies. This is a podcast where we talk everything Africa, politics, economics, security and culture. Welcome.
Security sector, or what we call the security and justice sector, remains one of the most contentious and challenging sectors in public life all across the world, but this is equally true in Africa. In Africa, this is particularly the case because the security sector and the justice dimension of it were really shaped by the colonial experience. When the colonial administration set its foot on Africa, they designed a security and justice system that did not align with the social contract.
We need to remember, of course, a colony was not a state. The colony did not exist to promote the rights of the Indigenous or Native People, as they used to call them. The colony existed for one, single reason, which was exploitation. Everything was built to promote the colonial enterprise. Take everything from the place, extract as much as they could, and then sent it up north, typically, Berlin, London, Brussels, you know name it. So the ramification of that was what? The ramification was that the colonial administration often recruited for one region, specifically from one tribe or one religion, and convinced these people, were co-opted into this enterprise, that they were the bone warriors, they knew how to fight. And they became the guardians of the empire, if you will, to the detriment of everybody else in that country.
So when independence arrived, we kind of just rolled over and changed the name of the same institutions, which was the constabulary force that became the police, or the armed forces, Force Publique, whatever you name it. So the structure didn't really change today. While countries and populations want democracy, they know their right, the structure, the the have to contend with have not moved a lot. Nigeria, which is the second largest economy on the continent and most populous country is grappling with the same challenges. Nigeria is particularly challenged because they have conflict, you know, Boko Haram insurgency. They have what they call banditry. They have the challenges in the delta. They have the issues of friction between different states, land issues, issues that we know that have come with the colonial experience. Even though today we talk about postcolonial, but the experience is very much colonial in so many ways.
Joining us to untangle and discuss the challenges that Nigeria is struggling with in this space is Miss Kemi Okenyodo, founder and executive director, ruler of law and empowerment initiative, also known as Partners West Africa Nigeria. Kemi is joining us from Chicago. Welcome to Into Africa, Kemi.
Kemi Okenyodo: Thank you. Thanks for having me. It's a pleasure to be here.
Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: It's our sonor to host you today. Nigeria is not unique in this situation that I just described because this is a legacy of colonial enterprise, but Nigeria faces a unique set of circumstances. How would you describe the security sector and the justice component in Nigeria today?
Kemi Okenyodo: I'll differentiate them. So for the security sector, the defense and security sector, I would say that over time it's, shall I say, five steps forward and a bit of three of steps back. So you find a sector has evolved over the years. Evolved in the sense that if we look at the quality of manpower within that sector, but I think know we have more people within the sector that have past through formal education track, as compared to what we used to have. But how has that transformed the attitude and the professionalism and skillset with the sector? You still find we still grapple with the same, same, same. Same, same old story. Political capture, not so independent of the elites of the politicians, per se.
Then if you look at our justice track, our justice track, if I bring out the judiciary from the justice track, we used to have a very vibrant judiciary during the military era. But what we find now is that judiciary is not as vibrant as it used to be. You find that we have a judiciary that most likely you would say have also aligned with executive. In some conversations, you would ask yourself, I hear colleagues say there's an impression that the judiciary is not seen concretely as a third arm of government. Right? They see it as an office under the office of the attorney general.
I don't know why that line is a bit blurred. So overall, both sectors, defense, security, justice, evolution, some sorts, but the evolution or the improvement is not happening as fast as we would want it to happen. If you ask why, it seems like it is something that is happening due to self-constraint or also political capture.
Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: You described an improvement in terms of quality of the personnel. They're better trained. There are more people. They're educated. If that is the case, if we stay just on that dimension, why then does not this translate into better outcomes for the population? 'Cause this is about the social contract.
Kemi Okenyodo: It' s the system. Right? You said it, it's the social contract. It's the system that you have in place. H- however, with the system we have in place, you still have some systemic challenges. Right? So some of my colleagues will say, and I do agree, that maybe part of what we're seeing, we see things in piecemeal. So at a point we thought, "Oh, quality of manpower. If they're more educated, if they go through the formal educational track, it's not learning on the job, they ought to be better." You have more people, graduates, first degree, second degree holding key leadership positions. Have gone to the finest of the finest schools, but they're still doing the same thing.
Then we talked about the legal framework. And then attempts were made to review the legal framework. I'll use the police as a good example here. We complained about the colonial legislation, the 1945 legislation went all out to get the legal framework revamped. We have the Police Act 2020. Right? What has changed? Nothing. (laughs) Right? You have structures being put in place. We talked about lack of funding. Extra budgetary and location have been put in place. What has changed? Nothing really.
And for the judiciary, you come ... For the justice sector, we have retinue of laws, Administration of Criminal Justice Act that brings the ... all the components of justice delivery together under a certain framework. What has changed? Nothing. And then we started talking about, "Oh, we need improved working conditions for the judges." That recently has been taken care of. We have a National Justice Policy, 2024 to 2028. Is that document in the public space? I've asked to see a copy of it. I've not seen it, but everybody's talking about it. NBA is talking about it. Will anything change? I'm not sure because what we're trying to do maybe is put a new wine in old skin.
Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: New wine in old skin, Kemi. I think I'm still grappling with the first part of your, your comment there. Yeah. Better trained, aware, traveled, attended some of the finest of the finest of institutions. All understanding everything we need to understand about the political construct, their political doctrine log and social contract and all. The country's gone through various evolutions, we'll say, you know, military, democracy and so on. What are the main impediment? You said new wine in old bottle, so to speak. Do we restructure the institution first? Have we failed to do that in Nigeria? Or what is up with the secrecy about the National Justice Policy? If all this is to converge to the benefit of the populations, the real stakeholders in this, what is giving?
Kemi Okenyodo: I would say that I want to be careful with my choice of words. The need or the at times lack of ... Do I want to call it awareness? At times, when we feel if we have this conversation within a comfortable clique of people that we are comfortable with, elite capture. That small number determines and understands and appreciates it, then it's fine. Whereas the conversation is not getting to the people that will be the end users of these policies, that will be the end users as per impact. So the policy, again, the National Justice Policy, I am aware of it because of the work that I do. Have I seen the full document? The answer is no. Same as you're asking, I'm saying to myself, "We've gone and you ... we've invested in this, why hasn't it been disseminated, such that anybody can get a hold of it and look at it?"
And also be familiar with it, 'cause that would come the element of collaboration, partnership and definitely accountability.
Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: Collaboration, partnership and accountability. To stay on that and to stay on the police side of the ledger, those of us who travel to your country, we like your country. We come to Nigeria. We love the vibes, to use the vonacular, but there's also always an element of you're not sure when it comes to security. So we end up, when we arrive, our travel agent or travel agencies will say, "Do you want a car, just a car with a driver, or do you want a car with security?" And a car with security means a police officer will be attached to your mission, to your car. This is just kind of an element that always strikes me because I know when I'm with this police officer, there's a Kemi in town who need police service who's not getting it because that police officer has been assigned to me. And this person is gonna be with me for the next week I'm gonna be in town.
It also means that the intendent or superintendent, or somebody, give permission to this police officer to go on another duty. We can call it VIP guarding or something. What is that? Is that part of the reflection of what you're saying or is that part of the elite capture? This is like, well, the criminalization and privatization of the, the public space.
Kemi Okenyodo: It's part of the elite capture. The mentality that the average woman in the streets that is selling or hawking her wares, or the child that comes from the urban slum area, that needs to find his or her way to school, or the man that needs to wake up at 4:00 AM to get to his place of work can fend for himself or herself, and take a hold of the state apparatus and give it to upper middle class, upper class, politicians, diplomats, to ensure that they are safe. Whereas, if you ensure that from the beginning of the spectrum to the end of the spectrum everybody is, say, using the resources available. And if you needed to add on to the resources, you add on, but in an equal manner, that everybody feels safe and secure and has access to it.
That's much cheaper and that's better. But, again, the social contract basically is saying those are the lower end of the ladder do not need it and their voices are inconsequential. And at times, I've been in meetings some years past, where you had elective officers come back and say, "Oh, if you decide to go on a human rights awareness training in my state, it doesn't matter because my people don't understand what you're talking about." Do you get it?
Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: I get it, but those MPs, members of the National Assembly, have the responsibility for this oversight. So what is it that they're doing on not doing? What is lacking? You talked about political capture, elite capture. It's even capture of the public service, uh, including those of us who don't even live in Nigeria. Because when we come and we contract this security, which I thought maybe Guardia or GS4, any of those. But, typically, it's actually a state agent. Where is the oversight? Where is the civilian oversight in this?
Kemi Okenyodo: You know, for the National Assembly, I asked the same question you asked, the same question, we asked them. Because when they come back and say, "Oh, we don't know," but they are benefiting from it. They are benefiting because they can have access to these resources, on an individual basis, by virtue of the office that they are occupying. So they also fall within the class of the, of the beneficiaries. So even though they are supposed to represent the people, I don't think they see their constituency from that lens. So when you have the conversation around defense and security, access to justice, it seems like it is an elitist thing. It seems like it is high up there. But if you link it to the insecurity and the pockets of conflicts that we have, for those of us that have ... don't work in this area, the researches, the conversations, they are part of the root causes.
The issues of marginalization, the issues of lack of access to state infrastructure, use of state infrastructure to oppress a certain few. These are some of the root causes to the pockets of conflict and the insecurities we have in the country. These are issues that we are sidestepping. And then using same state structures, right, and to further oppress. 'Cause it's a militarized approach that we're having to this.
Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: The militarized approach is another way to talk about what I started with, the colonial structure 'cause the colonial structure use the police to subjugate the populations.
Kemi Okenyodo: Yes.
Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: You could not speak up. So they will always unleash the police on you. Was always punitive.
Kemi Okenyodo: Yes
Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: Nigeria is 64 years old, which is the average for a lot of African countries. You said something, was interesting earlier, you say the justice systems, so I wanna tie police to justice, you said the justice system, you called it justice track, the judiciary was vibrant during the military. What is this contradiction? The justice system was vibrant during the military days, but is much more weaker today and more convoluted in not serving the people during the democratic dispensation. What is that? Where is the gap?
Kemi Okenyodo: During the military days, there was a unified, joint agenda. We needed to get the military out of the system. And that, we had the vibrant lawyers, the defense, human rights lawyers. We had judges at the bench that were giving very radical judgments. Right? That still today sets precedents for human rights and citizens rights in the country. So, for example, I think there was a judgment, allowed us fuse the African Commission on Human and Peoples' Rights, the contents of that law, into our constitution. It forms part of our legal framework. And we have it like that today. We had judgments in relation to public protest and protection of citizens during protests. Even not so far down the line, some years back, some of these judgments we brought to the front bona.
But now, in my opinion, what happened it was that when we transcended '99 into democracy, we just felt that having people in civilian outfits in these positions meant we had come home and dry. We had arrived, the promised land. We did not draw our mind or address our mind to the fact that democracy is a marathon. You would have people that would want to subvert power, access to resources, similar to the way it had been subverted and power had been used under the military era. So we started gradually from '99, and we ... was there pushback? Not really because we were also mindful that we did not want to derail the democratic train. Let it not be said that we could not maintain this process.
So there were a lot of, "Okay, no, not now. Maybe later. Not now. Maybe later." A lot of compromises. Too many compromises, and here we are today.
Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: Those compromises then, if you said there were too many, are they the cause or one of the reasons today police and constabulary force that is overwhelmed, also scattered in so many ways. Whereby now the armed forces, which we've not discussed yet, do a lot of the police work. We know that the armed forces in Nigeria are deployed, 36 out of 36 states. So they're everywhere, which means it's a really big challenge for the armed forces. Part of the deployment involves the usually military stuff, so they're dealing with insurgency and so on, but another part of it is dealing with internal disturbances. And in regions like the delta, is really dealing with all this banditry, kidnapping for ransom and others. What is the link there? And how did you, as a country, get there? And how do we pull back?
Kemi Okenyodo: For the police, I think it's mixed. From the police itself, internally. The leadership of the police over the years, internally. Externally, from the politicians and of course the society at large. So we're looking at reforming an institution. In recent times, I've been asking myself that the conversation around police reform in Nigeria, shouldn't we be asking ourself if the police itself wants to be reformed? Because you can drive reform initiatives, it has to be driven both ends, internal and external. Like I said, yes, 2003, when I joined the sector the conversation was around legal framework, 1945 colonial framework. What is this? What is that? Now, we have a 2020 Police Act that took us 16 years to get. The Police Act 2020 is in place. What are the other things that need to be in place to ensure that this act is effective?
One, is the police regulations. We are still on the review of the police regulations since 2020, my brother, when we got the Police Act. Because the police, what we did during that process, was to separate the act itself from the regulations. Reason being, that it took us 16 years to review the act. Then the regulations should be a document that should be reviewed periodically. And in our minds, we were saying to ourselves that the clause should be there that the regulations automatically needs to be reviewed because you have a new act. So the previous regulations you have cannot match this 2020 act because the regulations were speaking to the 1945 act.
We've been on this journey since 2020, 2021. This is August 2024. The revised police regulations is not in place. Why? That's the question we need to ask. And this push is also been ... It ... The push for the review of the regulations is coming external. We have an ally in the Police Service Commission in pushing for this, but you would've thought that this will be as a matter of urgency for the police as an organization itself. That we must have a regulation that drives our day-to-day working, since we have a new act. Two, is asking ourselves again, "What does civilian oversight of the police, what does it mean?"
You have structures that are civilian structures that ought to oversight the police, but are they independent? Are they allowed to function? Part of the challenge is the oversight, some of the oversight structures face is from the police itself.
Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: Why will the police resist?
Kemi Okenyodo: Why will the poli- ... Because the police is ... doesn't want to be oversighted. Right? I find it difficult to appreciate how agencies do not understand the strength of oversight. That your oversight agency is not your antagonist, your oversight agency is your partner. It helps to strengthen your process and they help to strengthen your organization and your institution.
Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: And help you build better relations with-
Kemi Okenyodo: And bui- ... help you build better-
Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: ... with the population.
Kemi Okenyodo: With the population. But this mindset, that, "Oh, we have a public relations off- ... Our public relations office can do it." You can't. If you could, you would have done it. It was because of the gap that, that existed, that this was put in place. But you s- ... That's why I said earlier, that I wonder if the police itself wants to be reformed. But then when you put the police side by side the military, the armed forces, then the police will be quick to tell you, "Oh, the armed forces are taking up most of our responsibilities." But are you ready to take up those responsibilities? Do you have the process, the structure, the capacity and the capability to take up these responsibilities? Professionalism is key.
They way and manner you go about handling your matters and relating to the people and solving issues is very important. Are you ready? Because it's all these little, little blo- blocks that we're talking about, the building blocks that gives us the confidence that you are ready. But if we have a system, when you come to state A, what you find in state A is not the same thing you find in state B, is not the same thing you find in region C. It means that it is ... it's whatever individuals that are in those positions or in those states decide it's good, that's what is good.
Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: In that case then, when you say, "Are you equipped to do the work?" Are you referring to the armed forced trying to do the police work or the police, themselves, trying to do the work that they have?
Kemi Okenyodo: Both parties. Both parties. And (laughs) I'll give example. And it might have improved. I think it might have improved over time. But once upon a time, when you have scenarios where I've been in conversations or in meeting rooms where maybe there ought to have been prosecution of offenders. Right? And the police actually then would tell you, "The military moved in, the armed forces moved in before us." And when they moved in, everything was destroyed. No evidence, nothing, but people were arrested. So how you do process in courts? Can you let them go? No, because they were arrested maybe at the scene of when there was a raid or something linked to terrorism, or linked to insurgency, you get. But you can't. Where are the evidence that we want to build a case file, that needs to be taken to court?
Is that really the responsibility of the military? My answer would be no. They really don't have that capacity. The police ought to be better equipped to handle such. But, no, so you have those people locked up, five years, 10 years, you can't let them go. They can't go to court. What happens? So we're in a limbo.
Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: On my last trip to Nigeria, something came up where there were people advocating for the decentralization of police. By that, I mean now that police structure is federal, people are saying maybe need to move to the state level, where it's closer to the people. And then people then ... You talked about collaboration, partnership and accountability. Do you think if state had their own police divisions or police department, or even cities had their own police department, will we see improvement in that direction or will that open a new can of worms?
Kemi Okenyodo: It's both ways. So for me, when we state police, I'm like, "State, yes." But it can't stay at the state level, because a state is not the closest arm of government to the people. It should come down to the local government. Local government structure is the closest to the people. But in Nigeria, you find that the local government administration has gradually and is being gradually eroded and being joined up into the states. And I believe this is part of the reason we're seeing most of the challenges that we're seeing. Because if it comes to the local government, within a local government there are wards, there are districts. It's closer. It's more contact. That is where the rubber hits the road.
So, yes, subnational, but below the subnational needs to happen, or else what we would find is a replication of what we have at the federal level at the subnational level. And if that accountability, that two-way traffic is not properly being put in place, which is linked also to the social contract again. So the social contract, federal, social contract at the subnational, renegotiated to ensure that the interest of the people are covered and that the voices of the people are reflected.
I'll give an example. Sometime ago we had a meeting in Kaduna and there had been a directive from the state government not to sell fuel to people that have, uh, jerricans. Right? And maybe okadas, at a particular time. It was in good faith, honestly. It was in good faith, trying to ensure that the fuel doesn't get into the hands of bandits or criminals. However, it's the same tricycle operators that the average man on the streets hires to go to the markets. When there is no lights, people find that it's more expensive for you to carry your small generator on a bike to go and fuel it at the fuel station. It's easier for you to maybe carry your four-liter jerrican and dash to the fuel station, get your fuel and put it into the generator, for it to work.
But you see, where we sit at ... where we sit, you and I, (laughs) we do not see these realities on the ground. We're looking at a higher-up picture and we're not looking at the lower-down picture. But if the local government system were working, I believe that the state governor would've had to consult with the local governments' chairpersons, that, "This is what we're coming up with." And they ought to. But right now, what we have, uh, caretaker committees, committees put in place by the governors. Six months, they remove them. So they're not really representing the interest of the people.
Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: So there's an issue of independence...
Kemi Okenyodo: There's an issue of independence.
Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: What I hear you say, Kemi, is like there's capture at all levels.
Kemi Okenyodo: At different levels, at all levels. Yes, my brother.
Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: You know, I, on a trip to Kano, I remember coming out of a police station, I'd gone to talk to the senior officer. And as we're coming out, I saw three or four police cruisers, these cars coming in, back into the compound, police compound. And I look on the doors, it had a coat of arms of the police and ... But at the bottom is said, "Gift of Dangote." So I was shocked. I've never quite managed to reconcile that, even today. I'm like, "How can a police station or a police division in a country like Nigeria, second largest economy on the continent, at that time actually the largest economy on the continent, how then is a private citizen-
Kemi Okenyodo: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: ... literally gifting cars and-
Kemi Okenyodo: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: ... equipment to the police?
Kemi Okenyodo: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: And what does that mean when Kemi has trouble with that entity and she-
Kemi Okenyodo: Exactly.
Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: ... calls the police?
Kemi Okenyodo: Exactly.
Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: And this was flaunted. This was not-
Kemi Okenyodo: Yes.
Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: ... even-
Kemi Okenyodo: Yes. Yes.
Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: Is this standard practice now or-
Kemi Okenyodo: Yes, it is.
Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: ... how do you see this?
Kemi Okenyodo: It is. It is practice, that you have private individuals making donations, cars, at times they build police stations for the police to occupy. What the states ... I, I don't know if they see it. What they're basically saying is that, "We cannot afford to run or manage our police force." And so it's being subcontracted to individuals who can.
Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: What are we supposed to make of the relevance of this state? I mean, Nigeria is full of corporations and institutions like Dangote. Let's call him an institution because of his portfolio of enterprises. And he's not alone. So if we replicate this across the country, then what is the future of the state? What does it mean about the state of the state?
Kemi Okenyodo: It means the state is not ready. It means the state is (laughs) incapacitated. And, actually, there is nothing bad in private individuals, right, making donations to the police or to state agencies, but do it in a centralized manner so that it is obvious and it is open. Because I think we need to appreciate it and also understand it. My fear, one of my own critical fear is what you have said. If such an individual, that is a very high donor to the agency has an issue with somebody else, can it be treated in a fair and equitable manner? If it were ... If we say, corporate social responsibility, once a year, corporate organizations within a region pool resources together and there's a centralized fund. But the anonymity is there, you do not know who is who.
We just know that we need to do this and this is available. Could that be the way to do it?
Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: But also the issue of expectations, what are these people-
Kemi Okenyodo: Yes, but that is-
Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: I mean-
Kemi Okenyodo: ... also not the best way to go. The state should fund its defense, security and justice apparatus. That's what it's supposed to be.
Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: Citizens pay taxes for this purpose.
Kemi Okenyodo: Yes. It should be prioritized because that is like a basic foundation for which we could see the compliance and adherence to the standards for rule of law. Because you are being paid from the state, so you do not owe allegiance to any individual or any politician that is outside the state, as an entity. Not a person that is occupying a position.
Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: This, this undermines the entire s- ... process of accountability. And there is no partnership with the people in that case. It's a partnership with private citizens. State have partnership with private citizens, not with the people at large-
Kemi Okenyodo: Yes.
Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: ... but who are the end users, to use a term that we started-
Kemi Okenyodo: Yes, exactly.
Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: ... with. In terms of ... You are unique in this situation. There are few organizations, like yours, with the expertize. You've done this over 20 years, with experience in security governance, criminal justice reform and so on. How do we build more experts like you, both on the outside, but also within parliament? Because if I hear what you say, there's a lack of this, either knowledge or political will to do these things. Are there avenues that exist where civil society and the powers that be engage for the betterment and the improvement of this space?
Kemi Okenyodo: Yes, there are. There are opportunities and there are engagement platforms. For different actors, you have different platforms. So there are times we share. There are times we come into meetings together, have conversations around some of these issues. But then again, there are resources readily available. You know, us, as Nigerians, you're willing to share, you're willing to make your opinion known. You know? What I also see is the element of people feeling more comfortable with people that say what they want to hear, not what they need to know. Also, feeling more comfortable ... It's a sector that is heavily male de- ... dominated, I'm sure you know that. (laughs) You know? My commitment is for the younger women, is getting more women into this space, uh, you know, that it's not an exclusive boys' club. It's a club for all of us because we are Nigerians, we have different expertise that we bring on the table.
There is the strategic engagement at different level, civil society leaders, legislative leaders or oversight leaders, or even the defense and security leaders. You have the middle track. I know, readily comes to mind is the military, the armed forces have under their civil military relations, have regular periodic dialogues, um, that bring together different actors, civil society, high brass, high brass of the military on thematic issues. And they take it across the country. So they seem to be putting a process and a system in place. I don't know about their other ... their sister agency. And that, when I say sister agency, I'm referring to the police. You know?
In recent times, the police have not really been intentional and strategic in engagement. I'll be honest with you.
Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: Speaking with some high-level police officers, my sense at the time, and it was very clear from our conversation, that they didn't see much problem. I don't know if this ... I mean, the senior officer literally told me, "We are really well trained." This speaks to your training, uh, commentary there. He said, "We train in Houston, by the Houston police in the United States, in Texas, in New Mexico, by the metropolitan police in London and so on, and we're do- doing everything that we need to do. So the problem is not really with us, the problem is elsewhere."
Kemi Okenyodo: That's good to know. (laughs)
Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: Yeah. So if that's the case, if they don't see any problem there, is this the kind of things that you discuss with them when you meet? And how do they react?
Kemi Okenyodo: Like I said, you know at times you can play the ostrich. And these are some of the issues that have been concretely put on the table. Like I said, manpower, quality of manpower has changed. The criteria for the quality of manpower has evolved over the years. Are we having the outcome? And then when we say we train in Houston, we train in ... the met police train us and so forth, how many of us get to go to Houston? How many of us get to go for the met police training? What is the state of our training institution? What is the state of the training curriculum? What is our approach to delivery of our curriculum? I mean, these are ongoing conversations that we need to have.
It's not criticism. It's criticism based on the need to improve the system. And what you hear, I stand corrected, is one person looking at himself and saying this is what it is. But you're not speaking for the larger part of the organization, particularly the CADA that engage directly with the people. Right now, was recently we had a conversation, "Okay, yes, we have 10,000 numbers to be recruited into the police annually." But that's at the constable level. Then we have the cadet ASPs from the police university. Why did we rule out the short courses? Because for some of us that look at it, and we're looking at the manpower turnover, are we bringing in and training enough people that would fill the slots?
From where I sit, I don't think so. But if you look at the military, you have the short courses, you have the entry level, and then you have NDA. So even if we are saying the wrong thing because we are civilians and maybe you're a woman, could you look at your sister agency and see how they have structured, and the processes they have put in place, and try and do a peer-to-peer comparison and learning. So you don't need to go to Houston to go and learn that. You don't need s- ... the met police to tell you that. And then you try and mimic and get the necessary support to make sure that it works.
Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: So what are the five recommendation you will have to bridge this gap and bring the institution back in alignment with the people's expectation under the social contract?
Kemi Okenyodo: To be fair, the political environment is also very important. So first, what they can do, where they have control over, as the defense, security and the justice, um, actors is having a strategic framework in place that is put in place through consultation, rigorous consultation that gives you a roadmap. And you can decide to have three. Maybe if it's capacity and it's infrastructure, and then underlining capacity, infrastructure would be the element of transparency, accountability, service delivery. So when we're talking capacity and we're looking at recruitment, we're looking at training, we're looking at promotions. And we're looking at what do we need the infrastructure, the soft and the hardcore underlining this is to be ... ensure service delivery is top on our game, transparency is top on our game, accountability is top on our game. One.
Two, would be the legal framework that we had complained over time, that we said were archaic, that we said they were colonial driven, that have been reviewed by the National Assembly. We should come up with an operational plan. It is possible. I know that it is not possible for us to implement everything wholesale, but then phase out the implementation process. And the National Assembly comes to play here because the National Assembly passed those laws. So what interest are they taking in ensuring that the laws they passed are being implemented?
Three, we've received budgetary constrained and we are asking for more money. More money means more accountability. And I'll give an example with the Police Act. The Police Act 2020 states that IGP needs to present a national policing plan through the National Assembly, by a particular timeframe. I think it's supposed to be by June/July of a year. And it's based on that policing plan, that the budget for the police for the next year would be development. Because the policing plan should set out the policing priorities for the country. Is it being implemented? No. Who should hold the police accountable to this? It's the National Assembly because it's your legal framework. I can go on and on.
Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: No, it's-
Kemi Okenyodo: (laughs)
Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: ... this is good. This is good. It looks like there's tremendous work ahead. The challenges are there, but I'm also glad that there is awareness on these issues at least from one side of civil society. I don't envy your position. I think it's then left to you and, uh, your colleagues to push for this. On this note, dear Kemi Okenyodo, would like to thank you again for-
Kemi Okenyodo: Thank you.
Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: ... joining us. The work you do at Partners West Africa Nigeria is very important and we appreciate your analysis today.
Kemi Okenyodo: Thank you very much. It's a pleasure. Thank you.
Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: Thank you for listening. We want to have more conversations about Africa. Tell your friends. Subscribe to our podcast at Apple Podcast. You can also read our analysis and report at csis.org/africa. So long.
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