Advancing Change in Nigeria: Advocacy in Action

This transcript is from a CSIS podcast published on April 10, 2025. Listen to the podcast here.

Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: Welcome to Into Africa. My name is Mvemba Phezo Dizolele. I'm a senior fellow and the director of the Africa program at the Center for Strategic and International Studies. This is a podcast where we talk everything Africa, politics, economics, security, and culture. Welcome. In today's episode, we explore the challenges and opportunities in driving social and political change in Nigeria.

For decades, governance reform, civic engagement and democracy promotion in Nigeria have faced significant obstacles from entrenched political structures to security concerns, yet visionary leaders and advocates continue to push for change. Udo Jude Ilo's new book, It is POSSIBLE: Influencing Change in Nigeria, offers a compelling examination of what it takes to challenge the status quo and introduce innovative solutions to governance and democracy building.

Udo is the chief executive officer of the Hague Institute of Innovation of Law and the founding partner of Thoughts and Mace Advisory. He brings more than two decades of experience in security, governance, democracy promotion, and social innovation. Formerly he served as the interim executive director of the Center for Civilians in Conflict Civic from May, 2023 to May, 2024, where he strengthened the organization's effectiveness and global profile.

He is the author as we just mentioned of the book, It is POSSIBLE: Influencing Change in Nigeria. And today he will help us unpack a few questions that we have. What does it take to influence meaningful change in Nigeria? How can creative approaches and new tools drive democracy forward? What lessons can global policy makers and advocate learn from the Nigeria's experience? Udo, welcome to Into Africa. We are delighted to have you with us today.

Udo Jude Ilo: Thank you for having me in Mvemba. Thank you so much.

Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: The book It is POSSIBLE: Influencing Change in Nigeria was published last year. I always feel like we always talking about Nigeria. Either we're talking about numbers, one out of four Africans is Nigeria and then we ask, so what? Or we're talking about the largest economy on the continent and we say, "So what?" Or we say, "This is a country of highly educated people," and we say, "So what?" Or the Nigerian like that to say it, "We are the most important country in Africa."

That's the Nigerian themselves speaking and the rest of us say, "So what?" What you are doing in your book today is actually challenging some of the issues that push us to ask so what? In other words, Nigeria as an experience is not particularly translated into what Nigerians themselves expect or anticipated of their country and what the rest of us on the continent want for Nigeria. Nigeria of course, is not alone, you have countries like DRC that in the same basket case where people ask the same question, this country is so rich, it has 100 million people. So what? So today I want to start just with a quote from the book, a quote from your book.

And I want to get back to the "so what" that you have been addressing in here. I quote here, "Change in a context like Nigeria is arduous, painstaking and sometimes outright perilous, but change is imperative and not impossible. The question often asked is, what change is enough? How do these examples of progress impact the common Nigerian? Is holding the line enough? Who is responsible for making positive change happen? These are tough questions to answer, but from experience, history and evidences around us, there are certain fundamental nuances about change that are worth discussing. In some ways, these nuances compliment and sometimes overlap each other." End of quote. So what Udo?

Udo Jude Ilo: Thank you for that question. I mean, I have the book here in front of me. So let me even start by saying this book was born out of frustration because like you rightly mentioned I've worked in the space for more than two decades and then you ask yourself sometimes, what am I doing? Is anything really changing? Are the elections getting better? Are the laws getting better? Are people living a better life? So you ask yourself these questions and you begin to feel like it wasn't worth it. Frankly, I've had those moments where I feel like, "What the hell? I mean I'm done. Nothing is happening."

And so I started having this intellectual debate with myself. Maybe I can prove your so what? After all of these things we've done, so what? What has changed? But when you start asking these questions, that something I used to do when I feel low. So I have these two columns. One, the things that are going well, the other column on the things that are going bad. And every time you do it you realize that the things that are going well are more. And so when I started doing this intellectual debate with myself, it became clear to me that my start off point was wrong.

I was looking at change from this whole scale aseismic movement of going from point A to another. And that is not really the answer because oftentimes change happens in unseen motions. And I realized that a lot of the things we did in the field over the years, even though they have not yet yielded fruit, but have made the journey of the next in line a lot easier. So you have a taboo conversation that suddenly becomes public conversation, you have settled issues that become interrogated again. And so I realized one, that one of the nuance of change is that it is in unseen motions.

The second thing that was very clear to me was that somehow there is a complementarity around everything we do in the space, not just in Nigeria, but globally. So in the book I talked about, for instance, the story of Emmett Till whose son was lynched, and the fact that a couple of years after Rosa Park refused to go to the back of the bus and when she was being interviewed by Jesse Jackson, she said, most famously, "I remembered Emmett Till and I refuse to stand up." So somehow what happens before helps inspire what happens now and hopefully what will happen in the future and the little gains we have.

So take for instance in Nigeria the passage of the freedom of information law, which took almost 10 years to pass, but at every point in time some group of guys put in an effort, they dismantle one hurdle, the next set of people, they dismantle the next barrier and then it goes on and then it goes on and then it goes on. And so you're at a point where you now have a law after a very arduous process, but it was only able to happen because people were handing the baton to the next person. You look at what happened with Senegal in the time of Abdoulaye Wade, how it was possible to rally the country to make sure he didn't get his third term.

But part of that work had started years before with the constitutional conversation that were happening in communities spearheaded by one of the local NGOs there, which made it easy for people to understand years down the line that this man's idea of getting an additional term was not right. And so understanding the continuity and the complementarity of action was what made me also realize that we've not really failed in a sense.

And the third part, of course, is that failure is not really, failure is reality. Failure could mean that a law wasn't passed or that a custom was not overturned, but you may have built up enough attention about the problems of that custom or law that in years to come, the next line of people who take up that issue it becomes much more easier for them. And so my reflection was that no, we have not really failed. Yes, we may not have gotten there, but we are building something that is gradually unpacking or dismantling those barriers that have been there over the years.

Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: You said a few things there, Udo, that are key. You started with frustration and then you talk about the non-linearity of change. It is not a straight line. I guess the question will be how do you light up your frustration to turn into a positive motion? This is what we're dealing a lot in our African countries and Nigeria certainly is one of them. When you say people look at what had happened to other people before them or in other spaces. So in your case, speaking of Nigeria, but you mentioned Emmett Till, you mentioned Rosa Parks, you mentioned Senegal. So there's an interconnectedness to change as well.

Udo Jude Ilo: Yes.

Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: So speak a little bit about the connection between frustration and then motion for change.

Udo Jude Ilo: No, thanks. Just like you said, the frustration is shared all over the place. So I think it is important for change makers not to feel as isolated as some of them are feeling right now. And one way not to feel isolated is to know that what is happening to you is happening to other people, has happened to other people. And I think it's really, really important to look at that solidarity of suffering that is all over the place. So whether be it in Nigeria, be it in DRC, be it in South Africa, be it in the United States, people who want to see the country be better are really, really frustrated because it looks like things are sliding back.

And even if you look at the justice index is sliding, rule of law index is sliding, democracy index. A lot of things are falling backwards. So that's desperation and frustration is there and it is logical and I think it is valid. I think it is better for us to acknowledge that people who feel frustrated at this time these are valid emotions. However, people have been frustrated before and they didn't give into that frustration. So I always talk about the fact that when Nelson Mandela was taken away from his peers in prison where he found a home and this incredible solidarity when he was taken away, he was genuinely disturbed that he is being isolated from his group.

That was frustrating. But then he turned it around. It became a space for him to reflect and for him to take one of the most consequential decisions of his political life, and that is opening up negotiations with the apartheid government all by himself. And history has vindicated him that perhaps without that engagement, that the smuggling of apartheid would've taken decades to happen unlike the timeline it took from the time he started. And so that is one good example of how you can turn your frustration into inspiration. And in the context where we work right now and where we're seeing this barrage of burden, the funding is depleting, countries are getting more authoritarian perhaps for me is also a time for us to think of new ways of addressing our problem.

So I think the frustration should give rise to some level of rejuvenation and rethinking of our approach. What is it that we've been doing over the years that has not worked? And what can we do differently? And what lessons can we learn from other people? And in researching and writing this primer, there were a couple of things that became clear to me that you lean on in moments of frustration. So who are your partners? Being able to go outside of your comfort zone and look at other people who may share the same interest with you at that particular moment.

It's not just about those who agree with your principles or your views, but those who are relevant in changing or influencing the change that you want. And I think a moment of frustration is a moment of thinking outside the box and looking at unlikely partners. And of course in the book I talked about what Martin Luther King did, his ability to work with people who don't really agree with him, but whose interests are imperiled by what was going on in America at that time. So I think that is one thing we have to do in our own climb at this point.

Making sure we look at some of these partners we've not really thought of working with and find ways to leverage their strengths and their influence to begin to turn the tide because we can't keep doing what we've been doing before, that they're lost with the frustration. It means we have to do something different. They say what brought you here will not get you there. And so that ability to constantly rethink our approach and how we're engaging with government, I think it is very important. And I think the moment of frustration calls us out much loudly to rethink the things we do. And that's the way I look at the frustration with faith at this moment.

Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: I want to stick with the frustration because frustration also means emotion and sentiment.

Udo Jude Ilo: Exactly.

Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: The exercise you just shared with us of creating two boxes of what's going well, what is not going well, and you on your case sounds like your glass was half full and you saw so many things that were going well and that helps you. So it's an intellectual exercise that calls for discipline. For the average person, whether Nigerian or not, moment of frustration are not intellectual exercises, the moments of a lot of emotion and a lot of here and now because you have seen that you've traveled abroad, you've traveled a certain road, and that road has been chaotic and really very difficult. So you want a new road and at that point it's boiling. So how do you channel that energy or that bundle of frustration and emotions for positive change that will put a citizen in the framework that you are advocating in the book? Because that's not given to everyone.

Udo Jude Ilo: No, I totally agree with you that it's not given and that's why we are having this conversation and that's why you sit one sits down and starts sharing ideas on a primer like this. People who are in the front line of making change, unfortunately I'm not allowed a lot of emotions honestly, because you really can't lead with emotion. It is there, but you have to manage it. So I had a habits when I was the OSF country rep in Nigeria, that when there are significant events in the country, especially the negative ones, I do a bulk email to all our partners, especially those who are funding just to share my own reflection.

And there are three elements of that reflection that I always share. One of which is that one, it could be worse. So the fact that we are still able to have a conversation about how we can influence change, the fact that we still have CSOs, NGOs, change makers walking around in our continent, doing their job is a plus. And so I start with it could be worse, but we're still here, we're exchanging this email, meaning we still have opportunity to do something. The second thing I say to them is, it does not matter how bad things are, it is never enough to give up because the moment you give up it gets worse. So that's the point I make to them.

Really yes, this is bad. We all feel like knocked down. And so one example was when there was the Lekki shooting during the End SARS prospects in Nigeria, and I sent that email to say this is shocking, but we have to realize that a lot of people are depending on us to help them find a way out of the darkness. Despondency and giving up is not an option because the other alternative, we don't want to hear it. And the third thing is what the vice president said in the forward, change is going to happen anyways, whether we get involved or not, it's just that we may not like the direction of that change.

And so despondency giving up, we can't give into that because the job is not finished. That's always my point. It's not finished. So I acknowledge it is difficult and I have had my low moments, honestly. There's been days I wake up and I'm like, "You know what? No, this is not just worth it." And then you ask yourself that fundamental question, if not me, then who? If not now, then when? And the answers are never nice. And so you keep going. But it is also a thankless job. I must say this job of being a change maker, of holding government accountable of trying to is a thankless. Because a lot of times you're way ahead of your time.

People don't understand what exactly you're talking about. And even when you speak in their best interests, people always also might think you're speaking in your best interest. And so it's a difficult job. So there's a lot of frustration point, but I think two things. One is having this conversation, having a book like this allows us to find a common point of shared grief and shared optimism, grief about where we are, optimism about where we can go. The second point is that there's an opportunity for solidarity that cuts across countries that can help us lean on each other to be able to weather these crazy times.

Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: The book is, It is POSSIBLE: Influencing Change in Nigeria. You've talked about the solidarity of suffering, which is where everybody find themselves in different situations. We need to talk about the solidarity of the solution. You've described that, how it's difficult, people have low points in their lives. You have experienced this, but you have also harnessed your own intellectual capacity to do this. There's a segment in your book where you talk about the place of leadership in driving change. You have mentioned the Rosa Parks of the world, the Emmett Tills and so on.

Let's talk about Nigeria. Where are the leadership in Nigeria in this change space? Who will you think have contributed to pushing Nigeria in different... Nigeria is a country of contrast. What you get in the press is one thing, when you go on the ground, it's as uplifting as it can be depressing like most countries are in the world. The challenge, of course, it's what every day's life is for the average Nigerian, which in the end that matters. So has the Nigerian been doing this? Nigeria's been a country as we know it in the current form since 1960 as its independence date. Where have the change been and where are we today?

Udo Jude Ilo: When you talk about who are the people leading the change or who will lead the change, if there's one thing I have learned from my country is that the change makers are in every street and every corners of the country. What has happened, and I say this also from running a program in Nigeria for more than 10 years, what has happened is that oftentimes we are focused at the macro level, the guys who make nice speeches on television, and I realized it's a little late. I wish I realized earlier that if we are able to look at communities across the country and identify people who the community listens to, people in streets, corners or in the marketplaces who have become a symbol of leadership, a symbol of decency, people go to them.

If only we were able earlier on in our work to identify some of these people and give them the support they need and build a network around it, the little services they provide, we would have built up a crop of fantastic leaders with credibility at the grassroots. And that helps us to then have something bigger at the top of the pyramid. So to your question, I think as change makers, as funders, as development partners, as CSOs and the NGOs, we need to pay a lot more attention to some of these guys in our communities who are doing good work. They don't have NGOs, they're not paid for it. This is just who they are. This is just what they've been able to build by being part of those communities.

And I saw that being put into fantastic use by OSF in Baltimore where they identified some community leaders back in 2014, 2015 or thereabouts and provided support to them. I think they placed them on salary. They didn't ask them to do anything, just keep doing what you're doing, but we're trying to give you some money to augment your earnings. And when that riot broke out in Baltimore, those guys were very fundamental in calming the communities and providing support to the community. I mean, I don't have all the details of the work they did, but when they told me part of the story, I was in awe.

And I think we need to do more of that, helping our people understand that there can be leaders acknowledging those who are doing great work in small corners in our various communities, and helping build a bridge of solidarity across communities amongst these people who are doing this thankless and selfless job and who command credibility. So that is one. Secondly, in Nigeria, we've got people over the years who have provided some classic example of what leadership is about. So in the book I talked about Gani Fawehinmi, who was a very fearless lawyer who created a brand, whose credibility and honesty was never in question and who the people called the senior advocate of the masses because they felt he earned it.

And I make the argument that change makers should look up to people like Gani and make sure that they're known for something, that they're a brand, credible brand that people can look up to so that when they call people to come out or they rally people to go behind an idea, people can trust them. I talked about Mbakwe, a former governor of Imo state in the southeast Nigeria, who was able to get his people to contribute money to go build an airport. I can't see any governor in Nigeria as we speak, who can get his people to contribute money.

But this man was able to do it because he had such a sterling credibility amongst his people for his selfless service. And so there are models that are not in the glitz and glam of today. And again, it is important for us as a people, as Nigerians, as Africans, to find some of these models, to find some of these exceptional leaders and begin to celebrate them, to use them to counterbalance what the young ones have been fed today that that is success and that is leadership.

Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: Speaking of leadership and advocacy, it eventually exists to do one thing is to change policy. This is what I was referring to when I said that the average Nigerian measures the success of this movement in terms of changing their lives, how things change, does it improve? Can kids go to school? Can they get a job? Can they go from their job to the house without being harassed by the police or somebody else? So how do we do that? I want to read the quote here that you have in the book that I want you to react to. And you say here, while protests may induce attention, it takes strategic engagement with duty bearers to ensure that actions are taken to address the concerns of the street.

Protests can get you attention and into the room, but effective advocacy is what brings the policy changes needed. When it comes to policy change, advocacy is fundamental. It requires talking to all duty bearers relevant to a cause in a language they would understand. This requires translating the messages and energies from the streets into advocacy and the language of policy. Every war ends at the negotiating table. It does not matter how obnoxious government has been, whenever the opportunity present itself engage with it. Does it always end in negotiation or is it a winner take all?

Udo Jude Ilo: Well, there are some negotiations that are not negotiations when it comes to war, but somehow somebody has to sign something.

Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: So how do you get people from the streets to this table whether it's negotiation or not?

Udo Jude Ilo: So two things I want to say here. One is we need to understand or we need to tell ourselves again and again, and tell people around us again and again, we're not government. CSOs, NGOs, they're not governments, but they get blamed a lot of times. "Oh, you collect all this money from funders." Or "We don't have water." They're not government. And I don't know, I say this every time I have the opportunity, somehow in our context in Africa, CSOs and NGOs and all these other groups, not for profit, they've become so important that people see them as an alternative to government and therefore they are held in even higher standard by government.

And so when people protest they protests because they feel the problem will be solved by their protest, but of course it can be solved because you are not government. So I think it's important for us to understand even as we promise people or we talk to our funders it's important for us to understand we're not government. So we can only influence and there's a limit to that influence. The second thing I learned is that also the language of advocacy is different from the language of the street. So fresh out of law school, I started working for the human rights law service. I was impatient and sometimes obnoxious, especially when I'm speaking about policy or talking about government.

And you know what, when you say those strong words and biting words, you get a thousand messages from people telling you, "Oh man." That you were fearless, you were just too much. But it doesn't change anything. The government won't even want to talk to you. How can I talk to you if you have just insulted me for like an hour? And so I have also come to learn that when we want to play to the gallery and want people to feel that we're path, we may not necessarily achieve anything on the other side. And so to your question, it is about finding the right language, finding the right level of decorum.

And also giving these government people an opportunity to save face, not to humiliate them to the end, which is sometimes what we do. And rightly so because these guys can be horrible really, but they're the ones who have the power to change what we want. And so we have to express our anger on the streets, translate it into something measurable, tangible, realistic, and make our demands. And also the other thing, Mvemba, is we also have to learn to listen to the "obnoxious" in quotes. So these guys will feel they don't have anything to say, they don't understand it, they don't get it, we should also listen to them and see what they're saying.

And from what they say, we are better informed on how to calibrate our intervention, how we calibrate our pressure points. Because one thing is to have a conversion with them, understand the pressure points, the people they listen to, the organizations they respect, the international press that they fear and use all of those leverage to mount pressure on them. But at least we should give them a way out. I think when you corner a white animal it charges back at you, but when you give it a space to escape, it probably might just leave your house without hurting you.

So that's my approach. That's where I think we should approach advocacy. Approach it from the point of view of I want to win. I want to get something for my people and make reasonable concessions. And of course, you know when people don't want to deal, at that instance, you know you have given it your shots and then you can come out and call them names as much as you want, but at least give them the opportunity to do something different.

Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: I hope that the wild animal and obnoxious as you call it, that is the government of Nigeria, will not be cornered to be left to go away, but should be tamed so that the change that you are advocating for in it is possible becomes possible, because otherwise there got to be a just balance between cornering, not cornering. I think if I may, I will say we need to tame that wild animal so that it serves the people of Nigeria.

Udo Jude Ilo: I totally agree with you. And the other thing that happens is that government becomes nameless and faceless. So when you address it as government, it's nobody, but it's everybody. And then you could turn into a wild animal because then there are no restrictions, there are no consequences. But when you isolate the elements of government to individuals, Mr. B, Mrs. C, and relate to them, yes, in their capacity as government officials, but also in their capacity as a human beings, that you know their names, you know where they come from, you know how they've studied, it humanizes them on one path and imposes a different kind of obligation on them because you're dealing with a human being, not just an inanimate institution.

Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: On that note of dealing with the government as human beings, governors and ministers and our neighbors and so on, I would like to remind our audience again, the book, the, primer is It is POSSIBLE: Influencing Change in Nigeria. We were very thankful for you joining us today Udo Jude Ilo, the author of the book. Thank you very much for coming Into Africa. We appreciate you.

Udo Jude Ilo: Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: Thank you for listening. We want to have more conversations about Africa. Tell your friends, subscribe to our podcast at Apple Podcasts. You can also read our analysis and report at csis.org/africa. So long.

Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: Thank you for listening. We want to have more conversations about Africa. Tell your friends, subscribe to our podcast at Apple Podcasts. You can also read our analysis and report at CSIS.org/Africa. So long.

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