This transcript is from a CSIS podcast published on 10/18. Listen to the podcast.
Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: Welcome to Into Africa. My name is Mvemba Phezo Dizolele. I'm a senior fellow and the director of the Africa Program at the Center for Strategic and International Studies. This is a podcast where we talk everything Africa: politics, economics, security, and culture. Welcome.
Youth movements have often been the driving force behind change during some of the most contentious moments in history. Across Africa, movements, such as Burkina Faso's Balai Citoyen and Nigeria's End SARS, have challenged deeply flawed governance, giving a voice, uh, to struggling young people, not only in their own countries, but across the continent. With approximately 75% of Africa's population being under the age of 35, youth unemployment has remained a critical issue over the last decade, fueling this uprising.
In addition to protests in Kenya, young people in Nigeria and Uganda, inspired by their Kenyan counterparts, have taken to the streets, demanding changes in governance. In Nigeria, an economic crisis triggered protests, in which 13 people were killed in clashes with the police last month. Despite thousands uniting under the banner of End Bad Governance, the movement saw little material success due to police crackdowns.
Similarily, Uganda's protest movement faced harsh retaliation from President Museveni's government. Led by celebrity activists and Opposition Leader Bobi Wine, the protest aimed to tackle widespread corruption within the authoritarian regime. However, after numerous arrests and unmatched demand, the protests lost momentum and eventually fizzled out.
Kenya's #RejectFinanceBill2024 protests, which sparked this wave of activism, saw significant successes. The controversial Finance Bill, including tax hikes on everyday items, is part on an effort to boost revenue for the heavily-indebted government. As the protests continued, demands expanded to address the overall cost of living. Despite violence crackdowns that resulted in over 50 deaths, Kenya's youth-led movement successfully pressured the government to withdraw the Finance Bill.
As protesters chanted, "Ruto must go," the president responded by hastily firing nearly his entire cabinet, in an attempt to quell the unrest. Although Kenya may no longer dominate international headlines, the protests are far from over. And the country's youth remain determined to bring about real change.
Joining me today on Into Africa are, to my immediate right, Mwanase Ahmed, a social-environmental activist, and next is Kasmuel McOure, who is the spokesperson for the National Coordination Committee of the People's Assemblies, and then Ms. Hanifa Adan, journalist and activist. Ladies and gentleman, welcome to Into Africa.
Kasmuel McOure: Thank you for having us.
Mwanase Ahmed: Thank you very much.
Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: You know, we were in Washington, D.C. when President Ruto visited. I was at the White House with, uh, my friends and colleagues. We witnessed the welcoming ceremony. It appeared then that President Ruto was riding very high. It was almost like a coronation. Standing next to President Biden, reviewing U.S. troops, it made the headlines. But immediately, a couple weeks later, when he came home, everything changed. It felt like the wave crashed. What happened? Start with you, Mwanase.
Mwanase Ahmed: I feel like Kenyans have reached a tipping point. Um, what, what has finally risen, I think, the Finance Bill, actually, I would say thank you for introducing such a terrible, oppressive, um, bill. Because Kenyans, I think, needed, or some of us have been, you know, people have been frustrated for a very long time, um, since pre-colonization, since colonization and transition of power and colonization by our own people. Even if you look at Ruto's history, it's decades of murder and of oppression and of exploitation of land and of people.
Um, and I think finally, the Finance Bill was a tipping point for the majority to be able to find their power in standing up for change. And, um, it united... A lot of people have been frustrated for a very long time to come out and speak up and stand together.
Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: Kasmuel?
Kasmuel McOure: Yes, thank you.
Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: What, what, um, what triggered this, from your perspective?
Kasmuel McOure: I think, um, just to echo, um, what Mwanase has said, a, a couple of factors did. However, the politicians were rather blatant about it. Because this is not the first Finance Bill that people were protesting. Um, last year, there was also a wave of protests regarding last year's bill, which was declared unconstitutional by the, by the courts as well.
However, the politicians at the time were living in largesse. They were flaunting their money around, and they were going on these podcasts acting as celebrities, um, on taxpayer money. So, you'd have somebody flaunt a watch and say, "This is 17 million Kenyan shillings," and that they would wear a belt worth maybe $3,000 US and those kinds of things.
And at the time, as you were saying, when, um, outgoing-President Ruto was at Washington, at the peak of what you would think was his international conquest, it was a tipping point. Because all of them felt invincible. They felt untouchable. They felt as though they run the world. W- they had disregarded everything that they had promised the Kenyan populace in their manifesto.
They had fostered... They'd gone against everything that they said. They said that there would be no enforced disappearances, there would be no extrajudicial killings, and that still happened. So, by the time the Finance Bill '24 was coming into action, it got to the point where every single person in the country was tired. And that's why you had 10 million youth on the streets, um, not being united by creed, tribe.
L- w- we were united, if I were to summarize it, that all we had to lose were our miserable lives. It had gotten to the point where it was so bad that we would rather go to the streets and die there than die in our homes. So, that's what I would say. It was not necessarily a thing, one thing that sparked it, but it was, it was just a melting point and the eruption of an, of a volcano that had long been active.
Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: The image of Kenya, Hanifa, is that this is a very stable country, a strong economy, it's a democracy. And in democracy, the voices of the people are heard. How did we, as Kenyan here, you, a- a- as Kenyan, how did you get to... Where is the gap?
Hanifa Adan: Yeah. Uh, Kenya is a democratic country. Yeah, I will give you to our democracy. But honestly, we are slowly slipping into the Moi era. So, I wouldn't say we fully... You know, the country did not fully rise up to the occasion of this democrac- democracy and respecting our constitution. Um, no, we were practicing our constitutional rights b- by going to the streets, you know. So, um, deploying the, the army, you know, armed men to mercilessly just run over us. So, the, the first point of, uh, trashing our constitution and not respecting it. Um, so we did, uh, really bad.
And 60-plus people, not even 50, died. 60-plus people died. And, um, one particular protester named, um, David Chege was, was shot, um, by a sniper. The guy was just holding a flag, a Kenyan flag. How do you shoot someone who's just holding the flag in the outer bottle? So, no, um...
Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: Sorry to hear that. And I stand corrected, um, on the numbers. 60-plus.
Hanifa Adan: Yes.
Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: So, obviously, there've been other challenges in Kenya. Democracy doesn't mean that you live in a perfect world.
Hanifa Adan: Mm-hmm.
Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: Um, Kasmuel just described the lavish life of politicians living like celebrities and less like public servants that they are. Through the years, there've been abuses, I'll suppose, of power. What was it that made this crisis different? I'll go back to you, Kasmuel.
Kasmuel McOure: You know, we, we have a youth bulge that everyone thinks looks good on paper. It sounds very nice to say for policy or for these big meetings, but the median age of our country is... Is it 19 or 19-and-a-half? So, you have that population of people, remember, who w- were given free primary and free basic education, basically, who read revolutionary, um, texts for their literature, and we expected life to move a certain kind of way.
And suddenly, you're telling us that after all this, that there will be no work for you. And the only work we are availing is exporting you to other countries to go and work as domestic, um, servants, while the children of the political class are getting all the top jobs. And it's not that they're better educated, it's not that they're better placed to get those jobs. They just have the technical know-who, not, not as much the technical know-how.
And it, it was inevitable. Just as, as the laws of physics suggest, um, i- it's just like water. It overflowed at the time when it needed to. Uh, i- it's, it's not that we've not had corrupt people i- in it before. It's not that we've not had an oppressive regime before. It's just that at this particular time, because there were signs. Two months prior, there was the march against femicide, and, and, and that's the march that, for me, was very eye-opening, because I saw that there was something that was happening.
There's someone who will tell you that even before that, that they'd seen another sign. But that was this telltale sign for me, where women and men marched in the city for a whole day on Saturday, protesting for others' lives. And I, I just felt like something was coming in the coming months. And then, the hype, uh, the way we usually think that it's just brain rot content that happens on social media, somehow, everyone had a wave of civic education. And people started dissecting this 136-page document, um, that was talking policy documents.
And everyone just realized that the height of corruption in this country has reached such blatant heights as never seen before. And that just orchestrated the whole thing. So, i- i- it sent everyone. So, you do not need to be well-studied. People who studied broke down bills into the smallest possible way. And at some point, just the youth of the country said, "Enough is enough."
Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: So, this speaks to tremendous mobilization. There is an element of, of course, intellect, people being informed, and we saw with 1,000 of pages of this bill. And then, there is the issue of how do you mobilize them? How do you pass this? You transmit this knowledge to bring, you said, how many? 3,000?
Kasmuel McOure: 10 million.
Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: 10 million people. So, Mwanase, what role did, A, this knowledge play? How did you transmit it to mobilize your, your fellow young people? But then, B, um, how did you get them to be where they were? It's a big country. Kenya is not a small country.
Mwanase Ahmed: Thank you. Um, first, I think there were elements of the bill that, uh, people could really relate to, that they didn't have to understand the 136 pages to, um, relate to how difficult it would be for things like menstrual hygiene products to continue being taxed or health services. Uh, so there were certain things that the people who are already most affected, and already most oppressed, and already in the most challenging situations, when our government is like blatantly... I mean, it's just like historically, it's been continuing to like, how can we squeeze the most out of our people through different taxation, new levies, uh, to businesses? And when it's just a blatant attack on like the most impoverished, basic needs, um, I think that was something that a lot of people could relate to and get, continue to get infuriated by.
Um, and when it came to mobilization of people, I think it's quite interesting, because our government was overwhelmed as to how and why so many people would be able to come out together with the same ethos, with the same reason, with the same anger, uh, without somebody paying them or, you know, comp-... Like, so this was, it was, it was a point where youth had nothing to lose, have had nothing to lose. You know, they're from... Like the 99% of Kenyans live in struggle. Um, and so at that point, um, when you're seeing your like basic, basic, basic health services and basic needs being continued to be, um, taxed for the benefit of these 18-million-shilling watches and, you know, completely lavish lifestyles, it got to the point it was too infuriating.
And for, for me, I can speak about Kilifi. That's where I was during the protests. And you would start... A lot of people aren't even on social media, you know. It's a place with a rural population, a high poverty level. So, um, the posters would go around and it was something so many people could relate to. Uh, but then, I think, the power was also moving through the streets and the neighborhoods and the community, um, and people from all de- demographics, backgrounds, uh, religions. It was, you know, you... They were all united. There was nothing that... It was not one tribe's movement or one political party's movement.
So, I think as it, the streets-based movement also allowed it to include a lot of other people, whether... When it's just an online conversation, it also blocks out. So, I think the streets-based movement showed how so many people actually identified with this and were ready to be a part of fighting for this change.
Hanifa Adan: Okay. To add on that-
Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: Yes, please, Hanifa.
Hanifa Adan: ... I think, um, the age of social media made this easier. So, this movement, uh, typically started on X. So, even d- du- during the first protest, obviously, uh, we were few, and we were arrested immediately we started. So, that, um, that was supposed to like, um, scare people away, but it actually brought people together. So, when the protest happened the next time, I was shocked. I was shocked at the turnout. Oh, my God, it was...
So, this being so organic and natural made it so easy. So it, i-... Um, they tried to, you know, make this look funded, but it didn't, it didn't work. You cannot fund that, so much anger that, um, stems from, uh, years of simmering frustration and anger from inequality and corruption. So, the age of social media made this honestly strong. TikTok-
Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: Mm-hmm.
Hanifa Adan: ... Instagram. You know, people found courage and validation. We found courage and validation through each other. You know, um, I saw my friends who I'd never thought I'd see in the protest. And then, he said, "I got my strength from this and this." So, people came together. They came, friends. Uh, so yeah, we found our purpose in there. So, yeah, we validated each other, we encouraged each other. That's how the mobilization worked. And social media helped a lot.
Kasmuel McOure: This is-
Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: And so timing... Hang on, just Kasmuel. So, timing is everything?
Hanifa Adan: Yes.
Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: And from what I hear you, um, say, Hanifa, is the convergence.
Hanifa Adan: Yes.
Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: There's technology on one side, all these digital platforms.
Hanifa Adan: Yes.
Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: There is the w- word of mouth. There's the frustration that has-
Hanifa Adan: Yes.
Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: ... been piling on-
Hanifa Adan: Yeah.
Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: ... to the point that Mwanase was working, was saying. So, that's even though you didn't, you were not on TikTok, you could relate to the frustration.
Hanifa Adan: Mm-hmm.
Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: So, it's almost like a wildfire-
Hanifa Adan: Yes.
Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: ... catching on.
Hanifa Adan: Yes.
Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: But how then does the government respond? And we saw that. What about the backlash? But then, we saw that the youth engaged with the president on social media to try to have a dialogue. Kasmuel, you wanted to say something?
Kasmuel McOure: I think, uh, just b- before I come to your question, if there's anyone who mobilized the people, it was the president, President Ruto himself, and his government. Because he's the one who founded the revolution by instituting what, um, I cha-... I characteristically, um, say, and pardon my largesse, I call his government a kakistocratic tombocracy, which is the government led by the worst people, the most inept, the most inefficient, but also the most corrupt.
And, uh, when we said we were tribalists, it's not that we were not acknowledging the beauty of the tribal mosaic in the country. We just said that tribe has consistently been used as a tool for division, and we would have that no longer. When we said we were fearless, all that we had to lose were nothing but our miserable lives.
And when we said we were party-less, we meant that not, we do not acknowledge the repeal of the Section 2A, which was, which happened to transform Kenya from a multi-par-... from a single-party state to a multi-party state. But parties, for the longest time, have been used to divide us along these lines. We said that this is for the basic welfare of the coun-... of the [foreign language 00:18:03].
And just to pivot, um, into your question, a lot of us young people, we did not host the president willingly. And this was one, um... And this is why I usually say that President Ruto is, um, he's a master PR... He has a good PR team, because that's what it looked like globally. And people would think that we were being arrogant. The X Spaces were a place for us to congregate and vent and, and air our frustrations and what we wanted. zHe... We did not elect him to, to come and engage with us on social media. W- we, we elected him to head and lead a government. So, when he came there, he was coming there to host us because w- we did not invite him to a Space. He said that he was, he was willing to come to a Space. And we organized a boycott because we also did a digital protest, where we organized a parallel Space with the one that he was hosting.
And the people that hosted him there was like a little clique that asked very willy-nilly questions. And we were also at the time when we were still teething and trying to figure out what our social interactions would be. So, it's not that he came to listen to us, but even by the time he was coming to the Space, we had already lost people to police killings.
So, if he came to the Space o- on the first day, that would have been a very different conversation. But right now, we were speaking after tens of youths had been killed. And all that he's giving us is not even justice for the families, not even a framework of how the people who've been injured, because there are people who received life-altering injuries. And, uh, uh, Hanifa has done a very, did a very good job in terms of mobilizing resources and ensuring that they got care and, and even post-hospital care.
The government did none of that. And all they wanted to do was come to the Spaces because they knew that the globe was watching, and people would not understand the nitty-gritty of what that interaction looked like. It was just him wielding more power and not listening, not actually listening to the people.
Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: Kasmuel, what you're raising is an issue of recourse and addressing grievances. On the people who've been killed, when we, if we stay on this, what has been the recourse? There's been truth and reconci-... truth, some kind of truth established on who was killed, when, where, by whom? And what has the government done?
Kasmuel McOure: Yes, there ha-... we've, we've established those numbers, and, and I, I feel inept to talk about that while Hanifa is on this panel. Because Hanifa has done more than any government would have done, more than what the Kenyan government has done. And I say this because she does not talk about her achievements as eloquently as we would love her to do.
Hanifa Adan: (laughs)
Kasmuel McOure: But she showed us what could be done with 30 million Kenyan shillings, where every person who was killed by this police force that we have was buried honorably, anyone who lost their limb was organized to get prosthetics for. Anyone who stayed in hospital and had surgery and whatnot, she took care of. She showed us how to crowdfund and how to take care.
Basically, it was the most direct act of protest against the National Hospital Insure-... Health Insurance Fund that I've ever seen. The government only much later tried to s-... do a semblance of talking about it. But till today, no flags have been flo- flown half-mast for the people that we lost. These people, they died... it's almost as though they died in vain. Because after they died, the politicians used their blood to seal and shake hands and seal a political deal. That's what happened.
So, there's been no form of recourse, especially from the government. We, as the citizens, have done, we've done the investigations, we've done the reports. We've, we've shared the details, we've condoled with the families. Uh, we've sorted out the bills. And, and, and we've not even seen... Because if there were a taskforce, the best person to give this report would be Hanifa, because she's done all the work.
She even has given us an audited report, therefore contending, why do we need to use billions to do this or that? Well, this is how we could approach it. So, that's what I would say. The government has really, really dropped the ball there. And they think every occurrence in the country is a political shift. Well, at some point, we just need to be humans, because we needed not lose so many people just to retain the same cabinet that, that we protested against.
Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: I'm sorry for the losses that you've suffered, uh, losing your friends and, and colleagues. Um, Hanifa, I will come to you in a moment to tell us a little bit about exactly this work that you did. Mwanase, you had wanted to intervene as well?
Mwanase Ahmed: Um, I think actually, it's been quite difficult to even establish the, the true numbers because, you know, there's been a lot of murder, abduction. And the same people who are, um, running this, uh, orchestrating this, are the same people that you would go to report to.
So, when you're missing people and people are missing, and when there's massacres that have taken place, like in Githurai and another town as well, and there's bodies being disappeared in the middle of the night, um, and the families from those communities, unless someone is literally going absolutely door to door in all of these communities from a non-governmental body, which is also a, a lot of work, I know there has been activeness in that space, you're never going to actually know the true numbers.
And then, to reinforce it, I think the way that Ruto handled, you know, after the first murder is there was no empathy. There was no acknowledgement. There was no honoring of those people or, um... And it was, you know, calling us all terrorists and criminals and inventing numbers. You know, I think after the first, uh, week, it was around 22 was the number that was going through our Spaces. And he came out to say, I believe it was six or eight?
So, even just the way that he was at addressing the nation, downplaying it, not honoring their lives, no empathy, you know, saying that the boy is still alive when we're talking about people who have been shot eight times-
Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: A child.
Mwanase Ahmed: ... a child who was shot eight times. So, um, I think it just continued to show this brutal layer of a lack of a human, you know, um, and a cartel leader. And Kenyans are... As Hanifa was mentioning, social media is powerful. And so you can deny that there's been mass shootings and abductions, and he's continuing to deny it to, to this day, but there's clear footage of that.
So, it's complicated, because it's been a very... Already it's extremely painful. It's extremely, you know, for families, for communities, for Kenyans. And we're still seeing abductions, we're still seeing tortures, we're still... You know, just yesterday, people were released after a month. Um, and the... So, the impunity, the absolute impunity of torture, of murder, of abduction, of, you know, traumatizing people and disfigurement, it's, um, it's, we, we are no longer willing to enable that. And we've not been willing to. We've not been okay with it. But how do Kenyans still stand to support Ruto?
Um, when you look, and it's not started now, there's been decades of, you know, ethnic cleansing attempts and murder. And so I think it's, the time only continues. That wildfire is just going to continue to burn hotter until, uh, change continues. There's been achievements already, and there's been successes. And as we know, it's not a sprint, it's a marathon. And, um, we'll continue to move towards, you know, justice for our land, for our community, for our country, for our people.
Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: Thank you very much. Hanifa, the president did change his government. The cabinet was fired, and then... But you did this work. From your perspective, what should the world know?
Hanifa Adan: Um, that basically means, um, all the lives we've lost and everything seems to be in vain. Honestly, I was angered. Yes, I was happy when he dissolved, um, his cabinet, but what use is that when, uh, the political rejects and everyone with history of corruption came back? So, he did not listen.
Actually, um, I'm so sorry. Um, this topic is quite emotional for me when I think about the lives we lost, um, so unnecessarily and for nothing to change. And they're trying to bring back the Finance Bill. They're trying to bring back the Finance Bill, and nothing has changed. The president is still as inept as ever. He is selfish. He does not listen.
This president does not care about us, his entire people and, uh, government. Uh, you can take, uh, the interview the DP had yesterday. So, instead of talking about the crisis in this country, economic and the state of this country, he's out there crying about being removed from a WhatsApp group. So, that should tell you the state we are in.
He, the, we, this is a fight, uh, we have, uh, we are going to do for a very long time that requires eternal vigilance because they do not listen. The same arrogance, uh, the blatant and disregard for life in this country is there. Nothing has changed. It's even worse. It's exhausting, honestly. It is exhausting. But w- we are not going to give up. Um, no, nothing has changed, um, but yeah, we are not going to give up. He should know that.
Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: You are not going to give up?
Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: You will continue to engage, I suppose. What conversations are you having, and what should be done from where you are today? Uh, the country has to get back on track. You talk about everybody coming together, different ethnicity, different, uh, religions and so on, which is a good thing. Uh, sometime bad situation leads to better outcomes. What better outcomes are you working towards?
Hanifa Adan: Um, I think, uh, the current wave of civic education that's going around this country is, uh, what we are working on and what we are investing in. Because we need people to be awakened. The political awakening has already happened, and we need to sustain that. So, everyone has to be involved. We are no longer bystanders. Uh, we just used to rant online and just move on. But nowadays, we take action. Yeah.
Um, um, for instance, um, just the other day, uh, we had two people who had been abducted for 30 days. And they were not seen around, no one knew what was going on. And the government plus the DCI, the police, were, did not know where they were. It is every time someone is abducted, they just come and tell us, "Help us produce them. We don't know where they are." This country is a joke, okay? And, uh, we are going to change that. So, the current wave of civic education is something we're trying to sustain.
Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: Hmm. Kasmuel, um, are your representatives taking on the mantle and engaging with you?
Kasmuel McOure: Um, no, they've just done... For them, the, the moment we are off the street, it's a m- moment of political reprieve of sorts. And for them, it's a good thing. However, we are also, and as I said, this feels like, uh, very dialectical in the sense that street action is what this political class understands. But street action also means that people get to die.
U- unfortunately, I'm famous, sort of, so it's, it's harder to kill. Not impossible, but it's harder. Hanifa is well-known, harder to kill. Mwana-... Harder to kill. What happens to the militant people that we have from Kibera, the young man in dreadlocks, whose name we don't know, the person who just coaxed? Those are the people who go to die. And I cannot, in good conscience, participate in leading those kinds of people to their deaths, while knowing very well that their blood is just going to be used as a rubber stamp for other political, um, alliances.
Therefore, what we are also saying is that if we cannot get a bullet revolution, then we must indubitably get a ballot revolution. And that's why part of what we're doing in civic education, and we're not coy about this, is that we're organizing to take political power; to ensure that we are legislators, we are members of county assemblies, we are senators, we are governors. And even if we can produce a president, much, um, the better.
So, those are parts of the things that we are doing and putting in place, and ensuring through study and political education to see what are the most efficient ways to take political power? That... Well, because everybody keeps on saying that revolutions cost blood, until it's time for them to lay their lives down. And th- therefore, I cannot, in good conscience, say that we need to, to be protesting, um, as long as we still have this rogue polix- police force.
And just pivoting off of the case that Hanifa was saying. When the d- d- deputy inspector general, uh, who was the acting inspector general, was, was in court yesterday, and the three brothers, um, the Longton brothers and Bob Njagi, were, were released th- the morning because he had been ignoring court sanctions and summons, the day he's, he appears in court is th- the same day these people are released close to a police station. And when he's asked in court, he says he's not aware.
So, we, we, we are at a very critical point where we cannot afford to keep on leading people to an abattoir while we can find more sustainable ways. So, we are educating, learning, and learning, but also engaging with the communities. Because an online action is not enough. Us going on top of vehicles and, and campaigning is not enough. Until we can win the hearts of the people whom we intend to represent, the people who we intend to ask them to entrust us with their votes, we cannot win this war.
And we cannot do it just alone. We can, we have to also just work on the social forces because the revolution starts at home. Because everybody wants a revolution, but nobody wants to wash the dishes. I cannot call myself a revolutionary while I'm a- an abusive partner. So, what this thing is, and the victory that I think we've won, is a public reawakening of us reexamining all our social forces.
What do we think about money? Because where I spend my money is my vote in capitalism. So, that's, um, w- w- what I would say i- in a nutshell.
Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: It's a... There's a lot of pressure when you're at the frontline, uh, of this kind of, uh, engagement, civic engagement. Because as you pointed out, Kasmuel, people get killed. And for those of you who are on the frontline there, um, you bear responsibility as well. I can only ima-... I cannot even imagine, I should say, I cannot even imagine what that feels like. Because if you're mobilizing people, knowing that they'll go over there and they'll be clobbered, they will be pummeled and so on, and somebody is going to go, not go back to the mother's house.
But at the same time, if nothing moves forward, then they will look at you and say, "What are you doing? I lost my daughter. I lost my son." Um, and that can be very hard. It can be very hard. I often talk to youth movement leaders. Uh, it's almost like a military officer will send a soldier to the front. The military officer eventually writes to the family to say, "You know, I regret to inform you..." In your movement, there's no such central station that will inform people. And this is a people's movement, so it's not a one individual ordering people to do.
How, how's that working out? We have a couple minutes left, but how are you dealing with that process? Because the fight, um, if I hear you right, all three of you, must go on. And you're hoping that the president and his cabinet, and the representative, and the assembly, or parliament, will come to you, find a way forward. Uh, I guess it will be resolved. M- Mwanase, we have about three minutes. You can take a couple of seconds and then so on. Let's go. And just, so this is a very important piece.
Mwanase Ahmed: Thank you. Um, I think I would just quickly build on the way forward, along, um, with the civic education, I think, uh, or your question around whether or not we're directly engaging them. I think that there's absolutely no way that those who have continued running, um, these corrupt, unaccountable, non-transparent, incompetent, uh, government, whether at county level or national government, they're not going to fix our problems. We do not see them as the solution. We do not see engagements as that... with them. So, I think it's ultimately about better future leadership.
I think the conversation is also around strategy and how do we build on this movement through different facets, through civic education, through the legal route? You know, what Faith Odhiambo has done with the LSK? So, it needs to be through the creative processes, great power in the creative expression of unifying, educating. Um, so personally, I think it's going to be a very multifaceted approach.
You know, as a single mother of two, you have to be aware of your safety. But simultaneously, it's been, uh, what? It's over six decades since people have, seven decades, been losing their lives for this country, for the freedom of this country. And those people remain some of the most oppressed. So, for me, personally, there's a much bigger purpose that we are responsible as Kenyans to keep, uh, ensuring that we will keep changing this country. Not with those who have destroyed it, but ourselves. Thank you.
Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: I'll go to Fa-... uh, to Hanifa and then Kasmuel, and then we'll try to close this.
Hanifa Adan: Um, being someone at the frontline made me an easy scapegoat, first of all. Um, obviously, Kasmuel and everyone, um, people at the frontline have had it really hard. Uh, I'm sorry 'cau-... because fighting for this country is hard, because people are fighting back. But like I said, we need to be vigilant. It needs eternal vigilance.
Um, there's a lot going on and nothing will change, so we will remain focused and have a thick skin. But, uh, as we move forward, I get this question a lot. People ask, "Where are you guys currently? What's happening? W- what are you doing? What's the future plan?"
I stated this, uh, before and I'm saying it again, this started as something unexpected. We don't... Um, do the means, uh, the end, uh, justify the means, or do the means justify end? Uh, I don't know. This is a, a very broad-based movement, not like the other fake one. Um, so it's a public movement. Any decision, anything that happens ha- has to be made public. So, with such a, a really free movement, it's hard to predict what it is we move forward with.
Uh, like, for instant, uh, the Morara case. Um, Morara is going around, um, debunking the lies of President and his fake projects. So, that is something he never saw coming. So, with each step, something just keeps, keeps coming up and we move. Uh, when, uh, we see it going to the street, because they were killing us mercilessly. So, people got scared. And also, they were destroying people's businesses, which beats the purpose of our movement.
So, we took a step back and they, they actually thought we were going to die down. So, people are asking me, "What happened? Why did you guys, uh, why did the movement die?" But it never. So, every time they think it has died, something comes up. So, each and every one of us has a role to play. Each and every one of us is playing their roles. So, we, we don't know. I cannot tell you what we're going to do next.
So, what I'm invested in right now is civic education. I want to really, really encourage that. That is the best way forward. So, each one of us is playing their roles. The one person is doing this, um, another one through arts and music. So, yeah, that is the best answer I can give when people ask such questions.
Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: I appreciate it. Um, Kasmuel, we'll go with you and then we'll close, uh, with, uh, Mwanase in our closing remarks.
Kasmuel McOure: Right. Uh, I'm also on the wing of civic education, with the intention of taking political power, especially in an elective position. And I encourage as many youth who can, who have a voice, who have influence in their, in, in their villages, in their communities, to join us so that we can change the laws of the land, but in a way that allows us to do the most good for our people. And make laws that are pro-poor-people and pro-people generally. Because that's the point, uh, where we are at.
We cannot continue to be addicted to the struggle. We were not born to just die in the streets, or just keep on writing proposals for grants and whatnot, while we can actually be part of those legislators. I don't see what... How better are the legislators in parliament? Are they better than us, intellectually? Do they have better IQ? Absolutely not. So, it means that if they can occupy parliament, our next operation of occupying parliament should be quite literal, that we are the legislators in there.
But also, in your own sphere of influence. Not all of us have to be in front of cameras. Not all of us, um, can be on top of cars. Not all of us can be in matatus. But there's a very, very interesting way. For example, um, Willie Oeba, um, he's doing civic education in modes of transport, in public transport. Um, as Hanifa mentioned, Morara is doing civic education through the debunking of the fake projects and accountabilities, auditing government projects.
We have people like Hanifa who also, beyond taking care of the people who are in health, are also using their voices in journalism. We have people like Masita Ruth, who are focusing on education, Wanjira who's focusing on social and ecological justice. So, wi-... if all of us keep pulling, uh, our ends and, and, and being deliberate about what it is that we want to do, and also to stop thinking about this as a Nairobi-bas- based movement, and just knowing that in Kilifi, in Trans-Nzoia, in Migori, in Kisumu, in Turkana, then that's how we bring it together.
So, we, we still are teething, and we are, we are a couple of months to the election. And I know that we will transform this through doing this whole multifaceted approach, um, a- and collaboration.
Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: Thank you. Um, Mwanase, 30 seconds of your last kind of your thought for our audience?
Mwanase Ahmed: So, um, one last thing is, I think we need to take care of each other. Um, as Kenyans, we need to bring love, concern, empathy, and take care of each other's well-being, because that is important in the movement. And on a creative note, um, I wrote this the other day. So, how we can also express ourselves through creativity, inspired by an artist, Mo, who had sang before. So, it goes...
Exploration of power.
Soul opens, eternal flower.
No more feeling sour.
It's revolution's hour.
Family, heal and recover.
Rise up, sisters and brothers.
Align, find one another.
Unite, protect our mother.
Reform a revolution.
Reconstruct the institutions.
Cleanse political pollution.
Stop the leadership looting.
Ruto Another Putin.
Impunity, sins and shooting.
Mao, Mao Evolution.
We are the solution.
Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: Very good. The um- That's, uh, that's deep.
Kasmuel McOure: Let’s Go. Man! (laughs)
Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: That's deep.
Kasmuel McOure: Okay, okay.
Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: You have been working on this for a while.
Mwanase Ahmed: I actually wrote it in 45 minutes at the-
Kasmuel McOure: Hey.
Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: No, but the emotion, the all the emotion-
Mwanase Ahmed: But the emotion has been there.
Kasmuel McOure: Hey.
Mwanase Ahmed: It's carried. It's not new.
Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: So, on this note, I would like to thank our guests today-
Mwanase Ahmed: (laughs)
Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: ... Mwanase Ahmed, the poet and artist, who is a social-environmental activist-
Kasmuel McOure: Right.
Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: ... Kasmuel McOure, who is the spokesperson of the National Coordination Committee o- of the People's Assemblies-
Kasmuel McOure: Yes.
Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: ... and Ms. Hanifa Adan, who is a journalist and activist. Thank you for joining us today on Into Africa and sharing your various deep emotions that we could feel in your commitment to the bettering of Kenya.
Kasmuel McOure: Thank you for having us.
Mwanase Ahmed: Thank you so much for having us.
Mvemba Phezo Dizolele: Thank you for listening. We want to have more conversations about Africa. Tell your friends. Subscribe to our podcast at Apple Podcasts. You can also read our analysis and report at csis.org/Africa. So long.
(END).