Scott Murphy: For over three years, Ukraine, a nation of less than 35 million people, has blunted and resisted the aggression of Russia, a nation with a population of over 145 million. Though engaged in a struggle for its very survival, by leveraging the strength and talent of the entire Ukrainian population Ukraine has not only been able to fight a significantly larger aggressor, but has improved its industrial base, grown its economy, and become a leader in the evolution of military technology. Today we examine the importance of leveraging whole of society actions to create resiliency, both prior to and during war, for our series Conflict in Focus: Lessons from the Russia-Ukraine War.
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Lt. Col. Murphy: Thank you for being here. My name is Scott Murphy and I’m a visiting military fellow here for the Center for Strategic and International Studies. Today, I have the pleasure of being joined with Kathleen McInnis, senior fellow and director of the Smart Women, Smart Power Program, and Iryna Nykorak, minister of parliament in Ukraine and CEO and president of Arm Women Now, a nonprofit dedicated to bringing NATO-standard equipment and uniforms to women serving in the Ukrainian military. Thank you for joining us.
Kathleen McInnis: Thank you for having me.
Iryna Nykorak: Thank you for your invitation. It’s a big honor for me to be today with you.
Lt. Col. Murphy: Now, thank you, Iryna. Thank you, Kathleen.
Since 2014 the Ukrainian government, military, and civil society have worked in concert with each other to ensure the requirements of fighting Russia, a significantly larger foe, didn’t result in either economic or civil collapse within the state of Ukraine. I’d like to start by asking you, Iryna, both within your capacity as a minister of parliament and a member of civil society, to provide an overview of the challenges faced by Ukraine at the start of this conflict in 2022 and through today, specifically with a focus on how manpower and the requirements of fielding people to the frontline have affected Ukraine. So kind of from both a government and societal perspective, what were the impacts of these requirements? And how does Ukraine view its situation at the start and now?
Ms. Nykorak: I would say that starting from the full-scale invasion we all were shocked, of course. But we showed to the whole world and to ourselves very high level of unity. So we unite all our efforts as civilians and defenders, as the whole civil society, as volunteers, as politicians, to fight against Russia. And if we are talking, for example, what is happening right now in Ukraine, and what people feel every day being under attack of Russian rockets and drones, of course I can say that everybody tired, and our defenders exhausted being at the frontline more than three years.
I visit Donbas area and different cities and villages very close to zero line. And I see how complicated it is to hold the line. And, anyway, this is the only chance how we can survive as a nation, as a people who is fighting for their dignity, for their freedom, and for independence of our country. Because we believe for future independent Ukraine, for our children, and without Russia on Ukrainian territories.
Dr. McInnis: Well, could I drill down a little bit into a comment you made at the beginning? Which was that you were able – you know, Ukraine was able to be unified after the full-scale invasion, but building unity of effort across the government, across society, is easy to talk about but exceptionally difficult to pull off in practice. Could you walk us through what the Ukrainian government – what civil society did prior to the 2022 invasion to facilitate that sort of commonality, that unity? And if you – and then maybe spend a little bit of time walking us through how has the – how has the government maintained that unity, because on the one hand there is this overwhelming aggressor for sure that is a – that is a catalyst for unity, but it’s also – I think it requires more than that. It requires more than an overwhelming aggressor. It requires intention to bring everybody together. So I’d be interested in your thoughts. Before the war and during the war, how have you gotten to that unity of effort?
Ms. Nykorak: I would say – I would say that it wasn’t on behalf of government; it was on behalf of people.
Dr. McInnis: Yeah.
Ms. Nykorak: Because I was in Kyiv when Putin’s invasion was started, and I got up at five a.m. because of very loud explosions near the window of my bedroom. And 24th of February 2022, like, thousands of Ukrainians were staying in very long line to recruitment centers. It was both men and women. If we are talking about civilians who, for example, didn’t join the armed forces as defenders on volunteer basis even without mobilization process, they were trying to support those who are fighting in other ways: as volunteers; as socially responsible business who support army with ammunition – protection, ammunition, with drones, with food, with clothes, with everything. So I have to say that every Ukrainian put their own tasks how he can be involved in fighting against Russia. So it's not because our government; it’s about resilience of Ukrainian people.
And this war has taught us many lessons, but perhaps the most important is this: Resilience is not built in institutions alone; it is built in people –
Dr. McInnis: Right.
Ms. Nykorak: – I would say is the main message. And it’s still – it was in the beginning of full-scale invasion, and we can see it right now on the fourth year of full-scale invasion, and on 11 or even 12 – 11 year of Russian-Ukrainian war, because of course it started in 2014.
Dr. McInnis: Well, what you were speaking to in sort of military strategy terms is will to fight, will to – will fight, to hold the line.
Ms. Nykorak: The will to fight, yes.
Dr. McInnis: Mmm hmm. And when I was in Ukraine in – like, a couple years ago – I’ve only been the once – but one of the things that I heard during some of these conversations that I had was that there was intentional work after 2014 to really work on building civil society and women’s groups as part of that, which helped in turn lead to national resilience. There was something – there was something there to have a will to fight. Would you agree with that assessment or that – how that played out, or disagree?
Ms. Nykorak: If we are talking about – you mean the women who join the army as volunteers?
Dr. McInnis: No, I mean more after 2014 international groups – investments were made by different groups to build Ukrainian civil society, of which women were part, which helped create a foundation for Ukraine to stand against Russia. Would you agree with that?
Ms. Nykorak: Mostly yes. And we, of course, put a lot of efforts to build this civil society together with our partners from European countries, together with United States of America and other countries. But if we are talking about this level of resilience, I would say before full-scale invasion we didn’t feel the consequences of war because the war was very far from us – from Kyiv, from big cities. It was in the east part of Ukraine. But after full-scale invasion, when everybody felt on themselves that the war is doing, like, knock knock to your door, to your home, to your cities, to your family, of course, we mobilized all our forces, all our efforts to be at the same line with our armed forces, with our civil society, and of course with government, with parliament, with politicians.
Dr. McInnis: Mmm hmm. Mmm hmm.
Lt. Col. Murphy: Iryna, thank you so much. And, Kathleen, what a great question to ask.
I’d like to go back and just touch on kind of the main point of what you just said, which is the resiliency that’s given Ukraine the ability to stand up to such a larger aggressor was based on a bottom-up, population-centric approach, not from the government. And kind of looking at it from the aspect of military strategy like you touched on, Kathleen, I think that’s a massive, you know, lesson learned for those of us that deal in this national security community because we tend to view things from a top-down focus where we have authorities from government or the military talk about resiliency. But it’s really that grassroots, population-centric inculcation against stress, violence, and hardship that really gave Ukraine the ability to do what it has done. And I think when we look at it from, you know, not just the United States but other nations across the world, that key takeaway is: How do we get our populations ready to be resistant and resilient in a bottom-up approach vice that standard top-down kind of authority-dictated manner.
Dr. McInnis: I think that’s right. I mean, sorry to dork out about strategy stuff, but if you don’t have that bottom-up perspective when you think about that, it is what created will to fight, right? That is – forgive me, Iryna, there was so – just to go back to the analysis just after the full-scale invasion, and what so many people were predicting was that, given Russian overwhelming superiority, that Ukraine would fall, right? There was just – how could they stand? They stood because of a bottom-up approach.
Lt. Col. Murphy: Yes.
Dr. McInnis: They stood because there was will. It’s decisive. But it’s – but it’s a secret sauce that we tend not to pay much attention to because we’re thinking about widgets and we’re thinking about tech and all the things.
Lt. Col. Murphy: That kind of touched on the question I’d like to ask you, Iryna. So in the military we talk about the skill to fight, which is kind of your basic tactics, techniques, and procedures – very much the widget and how to use the widget approach. We’ve also started to incorporate will training because we – you know, we’ve always kind of implicitly known that the will to fight was the most important component. Now, military theorists from Napoleon, you know, “Man, the State, and War,” all of these things touch on it, right, but it’s become more codified in recent history. But for a population it’s much different. We can’t run people through stress inoculations and things like that. How did kind of the Ukrainian population harness this will? Like, what is the key to that secret sauce that made you such a resilient people?
Ms. Nykorak: Very interesting question. You know –
Dr. McInnis: (Laughs.) Besides women like you. (Laughs.)
Lt. Col. Murphy: Yeah, exactly. Besides that.
Ms. Nykorak: If we are talking about me, I was – frankly speaking, I wasn’t ready for a full-scale invasion and I didn’t believe that Russian troops will be near Kyiv. And Kyiv was almost in a circle, so we could use only one road to go out of the city. And I didn’t believe in this. Even for a lot of messages from our partners, from intelligence agencies, a majority of Ukrainians, they didn’t believe in this. So I think that this total mobilization of all our resources – human capital, our ability to fight, to prepare very fast – because we weren’t ready, to be honest, I’m telling you even right now, when – on the fourth year of full-scale invasion. But I think that our armed forces, to whom we trust, like, 100 percent – if you will walk in Kyiv or in the little communities across Ukraine and will ask people who you trust most of all, they will answer armed forces. So I believe that this mobilization of professional defenders and those who joined the armed forces on volunteer basis is the only reason why we didn’t fall in three days.
Lt. Col. Murphy: That’s an incredible story.
And kind of on the story thread, I’ve always found – and I think, Kathleen, you would agree – that personal anecdotes and personal stories are some of the best way(s) to convey incredibly important points both on the strategic level and just kind of, you know, general lessons learned for any situation. And you know, both from your perspective as an MP and kind of being, you know, a leader in the civil society space, I’d really be honored if you’d share one or two personal stories with us about how, like, the resiliency of the whole of the Ukrainian population and the contributions from across the spectrum of females in both the military and the economy have really kind of allowed you to be this resilient pillar of stability in an otherwise very, very difficult situation.
Ms. Nykorak: It’s complicated to give you one or two personal stories, but I just want to show you this book which was published. And it was written by me and published in the end of previous year. It looks like this. I called it “Strong Women of Strong Countries,” because when I started to implement gender-oriented reforms in defense and security sector in the beginning of 2022 I wanted to tell on me how it is to be a woman defender in the frontline. So I visited the east part of Ukraine and I interviewed at the battlefield a lot of women defenders who hold different combat positions. And based on these interviewed I wrote this book and unite 30 unique stories of heroines of 21st very turbulent and unfair century.
I remember one of such story, about Elena Kuznetsova (ph). Before full-scale invasion, she was a teacher of junior classes in Irpin school. She survived after occupation. And in the middle of 2022, she joined one of the assault brigade. She took participation during counteroffensive operations with armed forces in Zaporizhzhia region. And when I interviewed her as very young woman – she’s 26 years old – when I heard a lot of stories and her experience, her pains, and challenges she meet every, every day serving in the army, I was shocked but at the same time I was motivated, because all these women with their stories in this book – and not all in this book – they motivate me every day to move, to do my work. And I have very single rule: Do what you can with what you have where you are. And maybe this rule is an example of resilience in my understandings.
But every day I meet incredible leaders, men and women, in the army and outside the army. And I understand that we don’t have any other option to stop and say: Oh my God, we’re tired. We’re exhausting. I can’t do anymore anything. We don’t have such chance. And we can’t be, unfortunately, pessimistic because even now, as in the beginning of 2022, we are fighting for our survival as a nation. So no other option.
Dr. McInnis: Thank you for that. That was an incredibly powerful reminder of the stakes, and the mindset one has to have to be facing the situation.
I want to turn to another military, you know, strategery point, you know, which is, you know, if you’re – if you’re in war, you want to minimize fog and friction. Fog and friction, it’s all – you know, plans go crazy. Everything’s chaos. You don’t really know how things are, like, going to shake out. It’s all nuts. And we call it the fog of war. And minimizing the fog of war and the frictions, like actually being able to get from point A to point B, getting your stuff to these different places, that’s another – minimize the friction, minimize the fog.
Your work with these women in the Ukrainian Armed Forces is really interesting because it points out a friction point that could easily be managed before the crisis, which is things like women’s body armor, right? Making sure that women are actually able to – if they’re going to be – if their nation requires them to be trigger pullers, and they are ready to go there because that’s their calling to do so, let’s make sure that they’ve got body armor that doesn’t put them at risk, that helps them get the job done.
I’d love your thoughts on those lessons, those ideas, things that that you think other capitals – I mean, because, frankly, if we look at the Russian threat, and we look at NATO and deterrence and all these things, if NATO planners, if alliance players, if U.S. planners don’t take these factors into consideration we are undermining ourselves before the war even starts. So I’d love your thoughts, your ideas on how – what lessons you’ve learned in terms of preparing a whole of society defense plan and defensive operations.
Ms. Nykorak: Kathleen, yeah, thank you so much for these questions. Not only body armor. Let’s start from underwear.
Dr. McInnis: (Laughs.) Yeah, let’s go there.
Ms. Nykorak: Yeah, because when I recognized, as a civilian in the beginning of full-scale invasion, that our women defenders have to wear men’s uniform, men’s boot, men’s heavy body armor, and even men’s underwear, I decided that I want to change the system of provision in defense and security sector. So I started to develop special uniform according to women’s body shapes, underwear, winter uniform, and everything that they need to be efficient as a soldier or officer being at the frontline operating combat mission.
So of course, right now we were capable and we continue to do this. We implement this gender-oriented reform during very active war. And we are trying to change the system, because when I started to do this I saw very strong wall of sexism in the army. And we realize that it’s a popular – not only in Ukrainian army, but in other armies. Anyway, right now for Ukrainian society and for Ukrainian defense and security sector, women in the Army is not an exception. It’s a normal. And even now, I see how the number of women who joined the army on volunteer basis increasing every month. I can provide you with some very interesting numbers.
Dr. McInnis: That would be fascinating to get a hold of, yeah.
Ms. Nykorak: Ukraine has the biggest number of women who hold combat position in the world.
Dr. McInnis: Wow. Wow.
Ms. Nykorak: Only in armed forces we have more than 70,000 women. Totally in defense and security sector, 130,000 women.
Dr. McInnis: So 70,000 women in combat formations?
Ms. Nykorak: Seventy thousand in armed forces.
Dr. McInnis: In armed forces, OK.
Ms. Nykorak: In combat, maybe 50,000 – full combat position, 50,000. And from this number in 2024, 5,000 women were operating at the same time a combat mission at the battlefield. In the beginning of February this year, the number increased five times. So right now, 25,000 women are at the frontline. And what I see from this full-scale invasion, my main – my main message that women are as capable as men of taking up arms and fighting. And show very high level of efficiency, from combat medic, to intelligence, being a pilot of drones, or being – I’m sorry, I – problem with my phone. Sorry. So holding every combat position on equal ground with a man.
Of course, it’s not like ideal system which is realizing right now in Ukraine, but we are putting a lot of efforts. I believe that in some very near future we will congratulate women who will hold – who will be a commander of battalion or brigade. And, of course, we will see women with the ranks of general. But anyway, if we are talking about their capability, I would say that after Second World War Ukraine unfortunately is the only country with such high number of women who involved in combat mission, in operating combat mission. It’s very complicated experience, but I believe that it will make our country stronger. And women in armed forces will be very important part of defense capability in long term.
Dr. McInnis: Well, and – so if I could just tease out one point that you made, because unless you think about these things on a daily basis it sort of – I don’t know, I didn’t appreciate it until I started looking at this more closely. But it’s not that women aren’t strong enough to wear the men’s body armor, right? Women are –
Ms. Nykorak: Not only women. Men as well. Yeah, I just want to tell you that it’s very complicated for both, for men and women, to use a very heavy body armor. But if we’re talking about women, right, in Ukraine, starting from – yeah. We have another body shape.
Dr. McInnis: Exactly.
Ms. Nykorak: That’s obvious, yeah. And –
Dr. McInnis: That’s exactly right. And it’s this whole thing of it’s not this – it’s not the weight. It’s not that women aren’t strong enough. It’s that literally it’s designed in a way that, like, can create pelvic fractures if it’s not –
Ms. Nykorak: Yeah, absolutely.
Dr. McInnis: You know, because of its design. It can create all sorts of back injuries, those sorts of things. It’s literally due to body shape. And there’s gaps in men’s body armor at the front because of our anatomy.
Ms. Nykorak: Yeah. Can I show you? Can I show you the sample? I have it here.
Dr. McInnis: Yeah, sure. Yeah.
Ms. Nykorak: OK. I will do it right now.
Dr. McInnis: Why not? Well, we can – but so it’s – so bullets, shrapnel can fly in, right? If you –
Ms. Nykorak: Yeah.
Dr. McInnis: Yeah.
Ms. Nykorak: Look, from here you can see there’s a special damper inside which is minimized pressure in chest area. And here, special part which can protect another part of your body. This is very – not heavy, but the armor, five kilos.
Dr. McInnis: Wow.
Ms. Nykorak: You see?
Dr. McInnis: Wow. Wow.
Lt. Col. Murphy: Yeah, I think that’s an incredible point. And not even from just the aspect of creating personal protective equipment for females due to, you know, the difference in anatomy between males and females. I think it’s an important kind of catalyst point because human factors and human engineering in combat equipment is massive across the whole of the force, right? Like, how many times has an individual throughout the course of the last 20 years of America’s conflict put on a piece of PPE and been, like, I can’t fight, I can’t move. This does not work well for its intended function, because it hasn’t been properly human engineered? And so I think this is – you know, it’s an incredible point, Iryna. And what you’re doing is at, you know, the tip of development in human factors in combat and trying to maximize protection and efficiency.
Dr. McInnis: And it’s across the whole force.
Lt. Col. Murphy: It’s not a gender issue.
Dr. McInnis: Correct.
Lt. Col. Murphy: It’s a human factors in combat engineering and harnessing efficiency issue.
Ms. Nykorak: Mmm hmm. Mmm hmm. And I want to say that this special female body armor, with very light plates from Israel with three-plus class of protection. And very, like, often even men asked me to provide them with these very light plates. And sometimes they can also use female body armor because it’s very comfortable for them. But we already started this very long negotiation and communication process with the Ministry of Defense to put some changes in their internal decrees because we need to have, like, a few different models of the body armor, which you can use as a Lego, you know, with different parts which protect your neck, your back, and other parts of your body.
And you can use them. And it depends on what concrete combat mission you do at the front line, because for combat medic you need one type of body armor. When you are in Azov Brigade you need another type of body armor and class of protection. And right now we can see that the type of war is different from that war that was in the beginning of full-scale invasion. Right now, Ukrainians and Russian troops as well, they use new military technologies. It’s a war of drones. Different type of drones. And our system is working in such way that Ministry of Defense provide our defenders with body armors with weight, like, 12 kilos and six class of protection.
Which means that, for example, if you are very close to your enemy, you need to be protected from the bullet of sniper. But right now, we don’t have such kind of operations because 96 percent of wounded soldiers are from shrapnel, not from bullets. That’s why we need to change, because the war became very technological. And of course, we need to protect our defenders, men and women as well, in extremely another way.
Dr. McInnis: No, absolutely. It just, you know, shows that lessons are lessons, regardless of who is the instigator for learning that key point, right? Like, fighting a war is fighting a war. And we have whole-of-enterprise lessons learned. And it’s important to have catalysts across the spectrum force those new conversations, new fielding, and new introduction of human factors in engineering. And so I think that’s an incredible thing that’s being learned, you know, across the world right now.
Ms. Nykorak: And, you know – oh, I’m sorry. I’m sorry for interruption. But in Ukraine, we have a lot of local manufacturers who produce and sew different – starting from military – from uniforms, boots, and including body armors. And they develop all these innovations starting from 2019. And when we show all these kinds of uniforms, boots, protection, body armor, et cetera in European countries, especially in headquarters NATO in Brussels, they are really surprised of the quality – very high quality of everything that was produced in Ukraine. And last time, when I was in Brussels, in headquarter NATO, 15 ministers of defense and 25 ambassadors of EU countries, they asked me if it really was produced in Ukraine.
And I answered, yes. We have a lot of very professional manufacturers who do it. And it’s our main rule, we want to produce everything in Ukraine because on this manufacturers are working – and other women who are internally displaced people. And we can provide them with work. This is like win-win story, because the internally displaced women who lost their homes, their jobs, and everything they had before full-scale invasion, right now, can support another woman who are serving in the army.
Lt. Col. Murphy: You know, Iryna, that’s an incredible point. It touches back to the whole-of-society building of resiliency. So your efforts and efforts across the Ukrainian spectrum of government, military and society, are ensuring that there isn’t a collapse of the enterprise. And in fact, industry is increasing. You’re producing high-quality military-grade equipment organically within the confines of Ukraine during a full-scale invasion. And so that just touches again on this importance of resilience and whole-of-society resiliency.
Kathleen, if it’s all right with you I’d like to ask one quick question.
Dr. McInnis: Oh, sure.
Lt. Col. Murphy: I noticed an incredibly cool patch on the plate carrier that you showed that said: Arm Women Now. Can you just briefly kind of provide an overview of what that is?
Ms. Nykorak: To be very short, Arm Women Now is a social project about equal opportunities, about respect and dignity of women who are serving right now in defense and security sector. And of course, one of very important part of Arm Women Now activity is advocation of their interest at national and international level as well. My strong belief, and I put my efforts to make the voice of Ukrainian women defenders very loud not only in Ukraine but also international area during international events.
That’s why I’m trying to provide our partners and those who support us with additional information about very vital role of women in the human piece. And book is one of such instrument how I can do this, as well as our YouTube channel. And we continue to support our women defenders because in the way of collecting donations and all the time fundraising campaigns, we provide it for free more than 12,000 women defenders at the frontline.
So we support women at the battlefield, and we support our Ministry of Defense, because all we realize that it’s very complicated bureaucratic mechanism and system that cannot adapt very fast. But we – as representative of civil society, we can. That’s why we do it. And I believe that every woman who is fighting right now with weapons or saving lives as combat medic, she deserves – she deserve this.
Lt. Col. Murphy: Yeah. I mean, I think that’s an inalienable point, right? Like, if you are willing to sacrifice and make the ultimate sacrifice for your country, you deserve nothing but the best because your sacrifice –
Ms. Nykorak: Yeah, exactly.
Dr. McInnis: You’re fighting for all of you.
Lt. Col. Murphy: Exactly. You’re fighting for everyone. And I think, you know, male, female and our military working dogs, it doesn’t matter. If you’re out there serving on the frontline, you have earned the best.
Dr. McInnis: Mmm hmm. Absolutely.
Ms. Nykorak: Can you imagine – I know a lot of, like, thousands of different women and girls. And we have very young, even in the age of 18-19. These girls joined the army on volunteer basis. I know women who is 45 and they have four or even five children, and they joined the army on volunteer basis. So different, unique stories with extremely different life, with children or without children. But anyway, they take very complicated decision and sacrificing, I would say, with everything they have.
Lt. Col. Murphy: Yeah. It’s just an incredible testament to those women, and the Ukrainian character as a nation. Just unbelievable. Thank you for sharing that.
Ms. Nykorak: Thank you. Thank you for supporting us.
Dr. McInnis: Thank you. One of the things that – I mean, obviously there needs to be a lot of work done to help Ukraine win this fight for us. But as we look to the future, the purpose of this series is about helping us understand the lessons from Ukraine for the future of war. And it just strikes me, you know, when we’ve talked about deterring Russia, we talk about porcupine strategies, we talk about mutually assured destruction, we talk about these sorts of – if you – whole of society resilience really does need to be a component of this broader suite of strategies necessary to convince Russia to not cross the line. And if we don’t take that full suite of activities or strategies into account, we will actually be undermining our deterrent.
Recall that deterrence is a psychological calculation. We’re trying to convince Putin not to cross the line. If you don’t have all of these things in order, if you do not have a convincing edifice, right? If you don’t have the line clear, and that we are unified, that we’ve got the will to resist, that we will make it hurt, and that we can resort to overwhelming force if necessary – those things have to come together as a coherent package to convince Moscow not to act. And so I commend you, Iryna, I commend you, Scott, for thinking about how these different pieces of whole-of-society resilience can come into play. And thinking about what this means for deterring and defending our societies.
Lt. Col. Murphy: Kathleen, I think, despite my inclinations as an officer to add something on the back of every statement made by someone before me, we’ll just let that stand. That’s an incredible way to wrap this up. And what a great insight.
Iryna, would you like to just add anything else before we kind of say goodbye and thank you for your time?
Ms. Nykorak: I just want to add that, unfortunately, Putin understands only a language of power. So together with our very strong will, with our resilience, we need to have more strong security guarantees, and to make stronger the Ukrainian army. Because only if you are powerful at the battlefield, you can start any negotiation with him. In another way, it’s impossible. That’s why he uses. And he will cross red lines in the future, not only with Ukraine but maybe with other European country, if we will let him do this. Because right now Ukraine is a wall of security to all European countries in European Union.
Lt. Col. Murphy: Yeah, it’s a very powerful message. Iryna, thank you so much for joining us today. We know how important your time is. And, you know –
Ms. Nykorak: Thank you for invitation. Thank you so much.
Lt. Col. Murphy: It’s just hearing your words represents the best of what we all aspire to be, which is noble service and sacrifice in a higher cause. And that’s what you’ve shown us today. And that’s what all of the Ukrainian people are doing. And you’ve given us key insights on what we can learn from developing ground-up resiliency, which is the key to that deterrence factor, like you touched on, Kathleen. And, Kathleen, thank you so much. It’s just been wonderful to sit here with you, always, to hear your expertise and your thoughts. And I think there’s a lot for us to think about as we kind of move forward into the more complex environment the 21st century is giving us.
Dr. McInnis: Truth.
Lt. Col. Murphy: Yeah. Well, thank you very much for joining this edition of Conflict in Focus. More information is available on the CSIS website. And thank you for joining us.
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